December 2022 Timetable Changes

Bletchleyite

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Yes they’ve done quite nicely out of the timetable reshuffle. What with the LNWR services too they must be in line for one of the best frequencies ever.

Will be very interesting to see if people mostly choose a cheaper price or a faster service, particularly now the prestige of the Virgin brand has gone.

Blackpool is a weird one as it has practically become part of the core service offering (in the same way as Edinburgh) - it depends whether that will continue. Personally, I do think that three/four fasts via the Trent are more than sufficient.

The thread has previously covered that the Glasgow leg may not return - hence my comment.

An interesting question would be whether dropping that Glasgow permanently would allow enough extra freight paths for the rest of it to be made a bit less hotchpotch and more regular interval? If it would I would be inclined to support that.
 
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Johnny Lewis

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What is a pity is that this timetable plan does very little for connectivity from Rugby and the Trent Valley stations to places in the North. With the hourly calls at Rugby and Nuneaton in Manchester services which are next stop Stoke-on-Trent and the Tamworth / Lichfield calls in Liverpool services which are next stop Runcorn, they offer no possibility for changing at either Stafford or Crewe into services to North Wales, North West England and Scotland. Definitely a missed opportunity I think.
 

craigybagel

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What is a pity is that this timetable plan does very little for connectivity from Rugby and the Trent Valley stations to places in the North. With the hourly calls at Rugby and Nuneaton in Manchester services which are next stop Stoke-on-Trent and the Tamworth / Lichfield calls in Liverpool services which are next stop Runcorn, they offer no possibility for changing at either Stafford or Crewe into services to North Wales, North West England and Scotland. Definitely a missed opportunity I think.
Surely that's already covered by the LNWR Trent Valley services?
 

Bletchleyite

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What is a pity is that this timetable plan does very little for connectivity from Rugby and the Trent Valley stations to places in the North. With the hourly calls at Rugby and Nuneaton in Manchester services which are next stop Stoke-on-Trent and the Tamworth / Lichfield calls in Liverpool services which are next stop Runcorn, they offer no possibility for changing at either Stafford or Crewe into services to North Wales, North West England and Scotland. Definitely a missed opportunity I think.

I know TPE are rubbish at the moment, but you can go to Scotland via Manchester. Once the direct "via Brum" services stop calling at MKC I suspect this will become my default if going north of Preston (or even to Preston).
 

The Planner

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Surely that's already covered by the LNWR Trent Valley services?
Indeed, you risk turning Avanti along the Trent Valley into a XC problem, is it long distance or is it for smaller hops.

An interesting question would be whether dropping that Glasgow permanently would allow enough extra freight paths for the rest of it to be made a bit less hotchpotch and more regular interval? If it would I would be inclined to support that.
South of Preston, probably yes, north of there unlikely as the Avanti sits between a couple of Northern trains at Lancaster in the down. On the up you may have more chance.
 
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irish_rail

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What is a pity is that this timetable plan does very little for connectivity from Rugby and the Trent Valley stations to places in the North. With the hourly calls at Rugby and Nuneaton in Manchester services which are next stop Stoke-on-Trent and the Tamworth / Lichfield calls in Liverpool services which are next stop Runcorn, they offer no possibility for changing at either Stafford or Crewe into services to North Wales, North West England and Scotland. Definitely a missed opportunity I think
The Liverpool services losing useful connections at Stafford and Crewe in favour of obscure locations in the Trent Valley seems a mistake if I'm reading this correctly? So more people from the south travelling to Liverpool will be forced onto WMR commuter services instead of being able to change onto intercity ones?
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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The Liverpool services losing useful connections at Stafford and Crewe in favour of obscure locations in the Trent Valley seems a mistake if I'm reading this correctly? So more people from the south travelling to Liverpool will be forced onto WMR commuter services instead of being able to change onto intercity ones?
Liverpool continue to get the same connections with Crewe as now; only one train per hour of the proposed two will skip it. And there's nowhere you can change to at Stafford that you can't change to at Crewe, except potentially Macclesfield.
 

TheBigD

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It will be interesting to see how the Nuneaton call in the Manchester train connects in to/out of the Birmingham-Stansted service at Nuneaton.
Potentially a decent connection for Manchester-Anglia journeys, especially if/when the Liverpool-Norwich route is split at Nottingham.
 

Kite159

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Will be very interesting to see if people mostly choose a cheaper price or a faster service, particularly now the prestige of the Virgin brand has gone.

Depends on the price premium for a Pendo over a 350. Might take up some of the London passengers who will pay extra for a faster journey, meaning more space on the 350s for those doing more local journeys
 

Gareth

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The Liverpool services losing useful connections at Stafford and Crewe in favour of obscure locations in the Trent Valley seems a mistake if I'm reading this correctly? So more people from the south travelling to Liverpool will be forced onto WMR commuter services instead of being able to change onto intercity ones?

I don't see the problem. Crewe will still have a single hourly Avanti to Liverpool and both Crewe & Stafford will have the LNR service. Stafford gains futher connections to places like Chester.
 

JonathanH

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I don't see the problem. Crewe will still have a single hourly Avanti to Liverpool and both Crewe & Stafford will have the LNR service. Stafford gains futher connections to places like Chester.
The perceived issue is that CrossCountry services stop at Stafford meaning that currently the whole journey from the South to Liverpool can be made on 'InterCity' trains.

Depends on the price premium for a Pendo over a 350. Might take up some of the London passengers who will pay extra for a faster journey, meaning more space on the 350s for those doing more local journeys
Once the TOC specific walk up fares are withdrawn, under expected future GBR policy, the 350 service will be less relevant to long distance travellers, unless there is some sort of differential in the advance fares. However, maybe that won't be implemented in December 2022.
 

The Planner

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I don't see the problem. Crewe will still have a single hourly Avanti to Liverpool and both Crewe & Stafford will have the LNR service. Stafford gains futher connections to places like Chester.
May be wrong, but I think the Scotland via West Mids gains a Stafford call as well.
 

Kite159

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Once the TOC specific walk up fares are withdrawn, under expected future GBR policy, the 350 service will be less relevant to long distance travellers, unless there is some sort of differential in the advance fares. However, maybe that won't be implemented in December 2022.
Which will effectively kill long distance travel, forcing passengers the choice of an expensive flexible ticket or booked train only. Rather than having the option of a cheaper flexible ticket valid only on the slower trains.

Also will cause overcrowding of the Pendos because if going to Birmingham why would you use the 350 if it costs the same?
 

43074

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It will be interesting to see how the Nuneaton call in the Manchester train connects in to/out of the Birmingham-Stansted service at Nuneaton.
Potentially a decent connection for Manchester-Anglia journeys, especially if/when the Liverpool-Norwich route is split at Nottingham.

The connection time is about 15 minutes IIRC, Manchester to Leicester will be about 1hr35 via Nuneaton. Northbound the connection is less good, but still competitive compared to going via Sheffield (30 min connection, journey time Leicester to Manchester about 2 hours).
 

Bletchleyite

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Once the TOC specific walk up fares are withdrawn, under expected future GBR policy, the 350 service will be less relevant to long distance travellers, unless there is some sort of differential in the advance fares. However, maybe that won't be implemented in December 2022.

I would be unsurprised to see a "not InterCity" or "regional trains only" fare remaining for those flows, even if only by way of Advances (including on the day Advances, which if available in large enough numbers basically are walk-up fares). It isn't really classic competition in the manner of the pointless TPE-Northern spat over 50p, it genuinely broadens the market. Nationalised railways all over Europe are doing similar things and have for years.
 

TheBigD

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The connection time is about 15 minutes IIRC, Manchester to Leicester will be about 1hr35 via Nuneaton. Northbound the connection is less good, but still competitive compared to going via Sheffield (30 min connection, journey time Leicester to Manchester about 2 hours).

As youve mentioned leicester, can you confirm if the connection is in to/out of the Stansted service, or the Birmingham-Leicester stopper please?
 

Watershed

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As youve mentioned leicester, can you confirm if the connection is in to/out of the Stansted service, or the Birmingham-Leicester stopper please?
In the standard hour, the Euston-Manchester departs at xx10, whilst arrivals from Leicester are xx08 (Stansted) and xx44 (stopper). So the official (and only reliably doable!) connection would be xx44-xx10, 26 minutes, from the stopper. Connections from further afield than Leicester are poor as it'll be advertised as a 62 minute wait.

Southbound the Manchester-Euston arrives at xx42, whilst departures to Leicester are xx24 (stopper) and xx51 (Stansted). So a nice 9 minute xx42-xx51 connection onto the Stansted.
 

TheBigD

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In the standard hour, the Euston-Manchester departs at xx10, whilst arrivals from Leicester are xx08 (Stansted) and xx44 (stopper). So the official (and only reliably doable!) connection would be xx44-xx10, 26 minutes, from the stopper. Connections from further afield than Leicester are poor as it'll be advertised as a 62 minute wait.

Southbound the Manchester-Euston arrives at xx42, whilst departures to Leicester are xx24 (stopper) and xx51 (Stansted). So a nice 9 minute xx42-xx51 connection onto the Stansted.
Thanks for the reply!
 

Jurg

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In the standard hour, the Euston-Manchester departs at xx10, whilst arrivals from Leicester are xx08 (Stansted) and xx44 (stopper). So the official (and only reliably doable!) connection would be xx44-xx10, 26 minutes, from the stopper. Connections from further afield than Leicester are poor as it'll be advertised as a 62 minute wait.

Southbound the Manchester-Euston arrives at xx42, whilst departures to Leicester are xx24 (stopper) and xx51 (Stansted). So a nice 9 minute xx42-xx51 connection onto the Stansted.
Thanks for that. Are you able to advise what time the Nuneaton arrivals and departures from/to Leamington are likely to be from December?
 

Watershed

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Thanks for that. Are you able to advise what time the Nuneaton arrivals and departures from/to Leamington are likely to be from December?
Arrive into Nuneaton at xx18 and depart back at xx37 (fairly similar at Leamington), so quite a change. That makes for poor ~55 minute connections in both directions between Leamington/Coventry and Manchester. The only good connections between Leamington/Coventry and Leicester will be eastbound onto the stopper, all other changes will be at least 30 minutes.

The connections to/from the Euston-Crewe semifast are pretty poor too, the only good one being from Leamington/Coventry towards London (but you'd almost certainly be quicker going direct via the WCML/Chiltern line anyway). It's clearly been designed in isolation, to provide a more balanced service between Leamington and Coventry and to allow the revised Avanti pattern - little or no consideration has gone into the connections at either end.
 

MikeWM

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In the standard hour, the Euston-Manchester departs at xx10, whilst arrivals from Leicester are xx08 (Stansted) and xx44 (stopper). So the official (and only reliably doable!) connection would be xx44-xx10, 26 minutes, from the stopper. Connections from further afield than Leicester are poor as it'll be advertised as a 62 minute wait.

Southbound the Manchester-Euston arrives at xx42, whilst departures to Leicester are xx24 (stopper) and xx51 (Stansted). So a nice 9 minute xx42-xx51 connection onto the Stansted.

I do wonder how wise it is to try and route more people onto the already rather busy Birmingham-Stansted services. It is one of the traditional ways to do it (indeed, the very first time I travelled from Liverpool to visit Cambridge back in 1995 this was how I was told to travel, the change at Nuneaton seemed to be pretty much the 'recommended' route then) but the connections have been terrible for years now, as indeed seem most connections in most directions at Nuneaton.

That said, so far the Birmingham-Stansted services don't seem to have recovered post-Covid, in terms of number of passengers, to quite the same degree as other routes now have (to the extent that I'm no longer trying to avoid using them whenever possible, which I tried to do pre-2020).
 

Watershed

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I do wonder how wise it is to try and route more people onto the already rather busy Birmingham-Stansted services. It is one of the traditional ways to do it (indeed, the very first time I travelled from Liverpool to visit Cambridge back in 1995 this was how I was told to travel, the change at Nuneaton seemed to be pretty much the 'recommended' route then) but the connections have been terrible for years now, as indeed seem most connections in most directions at Nuneaton.

That said, so far the Birmingham-Stansted services don't seem to have recovered post-Covid, in terms of number of passengers, to quite the same degree as other routes now have (to the extent that I'm no longer trying to avoid using them whenever possible, which I tried to do pre-2020).
They're also now virtually all 3 car, which helps greatly. As soon as you introduce a change you're going to lose a lot of potential customers anyway, but having a rubbish connection time puts off even more of the remaining few that might be interested.

So perhaps it shouldn't be that surprising that the Stansted service is quieter than others - despite connecting 3 mainlines.
 

MikeWM

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They're also now virtually all 3 car, which helps greatly. As soon as you introduce a change you're going to lose a lot of potential customers anyway, but having a rubbish connection time puts off even more of the remaining few that might be interested.

So perhaps it shouldn't be that surprising that the Stansted service is quieter than others - despite connecting 3 mainlines.

3-car does help, yes. In the past it was often very irritating when waiting for the 1900 at Cambridge with 150 or so other passengers trying to get on, it came in from Stansted already quite busy and only 2 carriages!

I should probably add that they are still fairly busy trains in my experience, just not at the level of insanely packed that they often were pre-2020.
 

dk1

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That said, so far the Birmingham-Stansted services don't seem to have recovered post-Covid, in terms of number of passengers, to quite the same degree as other routes now have (to the extent that I'm no longer trying to avoid using them whenever possible, which I tried to do pre-2020).
Considering a large proportion of the route is made up of local traffic it’s hardly surprising as XC cut back the frequency quite badly even when many similar routes where back to almost a normal service again. Even now with Stansted Airport becoming busy many services still turn around at Cambridge.
 

paddy1

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With the additional fast London service from Stafford, plus the existing LNWR and now the Scotland to Euston trains via Bham trains planned to call there, Stafford will get four London trains an hour, although two of them will be overtaken by the faster trains. Nonetheless, a big step up in service levels.
 

Jurg

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Arrive into Nuneaton at xx18 and depart back at xx37 (fairly similar at Leamington), so quite a change. That makes for poor ~55 minute connections in both directions between Leamington/Coventry and Manchester. The only good connections between Leamington/Coventry and Leicester will be eastbound onto the stopper, all other changes will be at least 30 minutes.

The connections to/from the Euston-Crewe semifast are pretty poor too, the only good one being from Leamington/Coventry towards London (but you'd almost certainly be quicker going direct via the WCML/Chiltern line anyway). It's clearly been designed in isolation, to provide a more balanced service between Leamington and Coventry and to allow the revised Avanti pattern - little or no consideration has gone into the connections at either end.
Thanks again for the info. Looks a step backward in terms of east-west connectivity avoiding Birmingham. Hoping that some progress can be made on the Bay platform at Coventry to get the second Coventry - Nuneaton train per hour at some point.
 

The Planner

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Thanks again for the info. Looks a step backward in terms of east-west connectivity avoiding Birmingham. Hoping that some progress can be made on the Bay platform at Coventry to get the second Coventry - Nuneaton train per hour at some point.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
 

g22

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In the standard hour, the Euston-Manchester departs at xx10, whilst arrivals from Leicester are xx08 (Stansted) and xx44 (stopper). So the official (and only reliably doable!) connection would be xx44-xx10, 26 minutes, from the stopper. Connections from further afield than Leicester are poor as it'll be advertised as a 62 minute wait.

Southbound the Manchester-Euston arrives at xx42, whilst departures to Leicester are xx24 (stopper) and xx51 (Stansted). So a nice 9 minute xx42-xx51 connection onto the Stansted.
Thanks for posting.
 
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