December 2024 timetable change

[xotGD]

There aren't enough 333s to cover all diagrams. Previously, there were the 321 and 322 fleets to bolster the numbers; now the 331.

So what I think will be happening is some services currently 333 will become 6-car 331, and some services currently 3-car 331 will become 333 - including Doncasters. So more capacity all round.

 

[GoneSouth]

There aren't enough 333s to cover all diagrams. Previously, there were the 321 and 322 fleets to bolster the numbers; now the 331.

So what I think will be happening is some services currently 333 will become 6-car 331, and some services currently 3-car 331 will become 333 - including Doncasters. So more capacity all round.

Thanks. I don’t remember there being anything other than 333s after they arrived on the Leeds, Bradford, Skipton, Ilkley services. That doesn’t mean there was enough 333s of coarse, I just never saw anything else doing them. I thought the 333s were lovely to ride on, would have been better with 2+2 seating of course but I guess what I was comparing with was the clapped out 50 year old trains from the southeast which they replaced.

Have Northern given a date they expect to reinstate the full 30 minute timetable (if ever).

 

[Adam0984]

The 333s were diagrammed much tighter previously with very little recovery and turnround time. When I started the 321s only came out for 1 evening trip to Ilkley which became a Skipton and then became all day diagrams when the 322s came. Now the 333 are an aging fleet they need more TLC so more are stood down at a time and also the increased turnround time and keeping units on the same block of routes means that 1 incident doesn't thrown everything out

 

[Bikeman78]

u

If there’s lots being run by 331s, what has happened to all the 333s?

When I was in Leeds there were enough 333s to run all the 2tph Leeds to Bradford, Leeds and Bradford to Ilkley, and Leeds and Bradford to Skipton. I think the fleet was bought for exactly that service pattern.

Have some been scrapped? Have the been moved? I used to like those trains… “Welcome aboard the Skipton Train”.

Weren’t they partly funded by WYPTE.

Sad that BDQ is being sidelined a little, a very busy place once upon a time.

I suspect it maybe due for a bit of a revival when the council discovers there’s a big chunk of land nearby to build a new bus station/interchange.

There were never enough class 333 to cover all the workings. If I recall correctly, there was a DMU turn to Skipton in the morning peak. One of the three class 321s had booked work through Shipley in the evening peak. When the class 322s arrived, there was quite a lot of booked work for 321/322 on the Shipley routes.

 

[sjm77]

Thanks. I don’t remember there being anything other than 333s after they arrived on the Leeds, Bradford, Skipton, Ilkley services. That doesn’t mean there was enough 333s of coarse, I just never saw anything else doing them. I thought the 333s were lovely to ride on, would have been better with 2+2 seating of course but I guess what I was comparing with was the clapped out 50 year old trains from the southeast which they replaced.

There was quite often a diesel unit on one diagram, About 6 or 7 years ago I was on an Ilkely pacer (perish the thought after a Betty's cream tea).

 

[stan claire]

Are northern making Leeds-Ilkley services throughout the day as 6-car rather than some 3, some 4 and some 6 which I thought was the previous arrangement? It's rather interesting though because despite listing Manchester - Blackpool as returning to 6 car all day, it doesn't mention anything about the Leeds services (see https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/travel/timetables/timetable-change)

I'm glad they're prioritising capacity this time around, having experience with the capacity (or lack of it) on the Airport - Blackpool services hopefully the double 323 sets will be more reliable (ie they won't be 3 or 4 car vice 6 like the 331s regularly are) They're already doing training runs of 323s from Preston to Bolton, such as today's: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P05471/2024-10-19/detailed#allox_id=0

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

My understanding (informed by not an ounce of official intelligence but just from reading here and there) is that (Aire/Wharfe-wise) Leeds - Skipton will become 6 car (2x331) all day apart from a few diagrams outside of the peaks) whilst the other parts of the triangle will become 4 car (1x333) except for a few diagrams in the peaks which will be 6 car (2x331) once the 4 car 331s are shipped over to the western side of the Pennines.

Leeds - Doncaster will be solid 333 territory.

Although listen to anyone with any inside knowledge over my cobbled together understanding!

 

[stan claire]

My understanding (informed by not an ounce of official intelligence but just from reading here and there) is that (Aire/Wharfe-wise) Leeds - Skipton will become 6 car (2x331) all day apart from a few diagrams outside of the peaks) whilst the other parts of the triangle will become 4 car (1x333) except for a few diagrams in the peaks which will be 6 car (2x331) once the 4 car 331s are shipped over to the western side of the Pennines.

We've had all 12 of the 4 cars since last December, the east are just waiting for a few more 3 cars from over here once Blackpool crew have been trained on 323s and platform extensions at Leyland are finally cleared (they've been working on them all year and they're still fenced off). The 6 car 323s could always enter service here and 6 car 331s in Leeds before the timetable change for all we know, the swapped 331s started running in November

 

[FManc]

The AWC Manchester to Euston sub 2 hour flyer is back from December. 1R19 07:00 departure, pick up only at Stockport and then non-stop arriving into Euston at 08:59.

 

[dk1]

The AWC Manchester to Euston sub 2 hour flyer is back from December. 1R19 07:00 departure, pick up only at Stockport and then non-stop arriving into Euston at 08:59.

That makes me very happy

Interestingly there is a 06:55 preceding it from Piccadilly that goes via Crewe and arrives 10mins later.

The Liverpool flyer however now leaves earlier at 06:43 and still only stops at Runcorn but has been decelerated by 9mins. Timed for an 807 by the looks of things.

 

[hexagon789]

The Liverpool flyer however now leaves earlier at 06:43 and still only stops at Runcorn but has been decelerated by 9mins. Timed for an 807 by the looks of things.

Yes, it is timed for 80x. There are just the previous two services timed for 390s currently, but two others are supposed to feature in December.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

That makes me very happy

Interestingly there is a 06:55 preceding it from Piccadilly that goes via Crewe and arrives 10mins later.

The Liverpool flyer however now leaves earlier at 06:43 and still only stops at Runcorn but has been decelerated by 9mins. Timed for an 807 by the looks of things.

Welcome to todays railway invest money and make things worse

 

[FManc]

That makes me very happy

Interestingly there is a 06:55 preceding it from Piccadilly that goes via Crewe and arrives 10mins later.

The Liverpool flyer however now leaves earlier at 06:43 and still only stops at Runcorn but has been decelerated by 9mins. Timed for an 807 by the looks of things.

Yeah it’s definitely a welcome return. I’m sure it was pre-Covid it last ran but I can’t remember for sure. The loadings for the 06:55 and 07:15 have gone through the roof so the return of the flyer is much needed.

 

[dk1]

Welcome to todays railway invest money and make things worse

I suppose there is good and bad in there. At least the 07:00 ex-Manchester is back on track.

Yeah it’s definitely a welcome return. I’m sure it was pre-Covid it last ran but I can’t remember for sure. The loadings for the 06:55 and 07:15 have gone through the roof so the return of the flyer is much needed.

It seems like that on so many peak trains into London now and business travel seems to be picking up no end. I try to tell myself we have been bordering a recession and historically these trains always suffered at such times. It’s not all down to the Covid effect.

 

[A S Leib]

Getting slightly off-topic, but as the WCML, ECML (Flying Scotsman, Lumo if you count it, I think a nonstop Wakefield to King's Cross service?) and GWML (e.g. 16:18 nonstop to Bristol Parkway then to Carmarthen) have / have had in the recent past superfast services, has the MML had anything skipping Chesterfield, Derby or Leicester? I'd guess that the shorter distances means less of a need.

Also, is there any way of getting the National Rail website's timetable generator to show calling points, or was that removed in the website design?

 

[30907]

The Liverpool flyer however now leaves earlier at 06:43 and still only stops at Runcorn but has been decelerated by 9mins. Timed for an 807 by the looks of things.

It leaves at 0643 currently according to RTT and the published timetable. Not sure when it changed from 0700.

 

[LowLevel]

Getting slightly off-topic, but as the WCML, ECML (Flying Scotsman, Lumo if you count it, I think a nonstop Wakefield to King's Cross service?) and GWML (e.g. 16:18 nonstop to Bristol Parkway then to Carmarthen) have / have had in the recent past superfast services, has the MML had anything skipping Chesterfield, Derby or Leicester? I'd guess that the shorter distances means less of a need.

Also, is there any way of getting the National Rail website's timetable generator to show calling points, or was that removed in the website design?

The Master Cutler up HST set in the morning used to run Sheffield - Chesterfield - St Pancras via the Erewash (Alfreton/Toton) and non stop through Leicester.

Ceased some years back now.

 

[dk1]

It leaves at 0643 currently according to RTT and the published timetable. Not sure when it changed from 0700.

The original VHF timetable had it at 07:00 then in a flight of fast trains arriving Euston within 7mins of each other from Manchester, here and Glasgow. There wasn’t much change from then until the pandemic.

 

[Adam0984]

The Master Cutler up HST set in the morning used to run Sheffield - Chesterfield - St Pancras via the Erewash (Alfreton/Toton) and non stop through Leicester.

Ceased some years back now.

Went on that as a kid from Wakefield when MML offered some really cheap fares to compete with the faster GNER route, I couldn't get my head around how we missed Derby and Nottingham I thought you went through one or the other

 

[Peter0124]

The AWC Manchester to Euston sub 2 hour flyer is back from December. 1R19 07:00 departure, pick up only at Stockport and then non-stop arriving into Euston at 08:59.

Think that was only added to it recently as when I checked the TT in august (when it was released) it wasn't there.

 

[Jamesrob637]

The AWC Manchester to Euston sub 2 hour flyer is back from December. 1R19 07:00 departure, pick up only at Stockport and then non-stop arriving into Euston at 08:59.

Monday to Thursday it makes sense. Friday business travel to London is light so the other services can cope.

 

[JRT]

u

If there’s lots being run by 331s, what has happened to all the 333s?

When I was in Leeds there were enough 333s to run all the 2tph Leeds to Bradford, Leeds and Bradford to Ilkley, and Leeds and Bradford to Skipton. I think the fleet was bought for exactly that service pattern.

Have some been scrapped? Have the been moved? I used to like those trains… “Welcome aboard the Skipton Train”.

Weren’t they partly funded by WYPTE.

Sad that BDQ is being sidelined a little, a very busy place once upon a time.

I suspect it maybe due for a bit of a revival when the council discovers there’s a big chunk of land nearby to build a new bus station/interchange.

The original "North Bradford Electrics" timetable had a tight 4-minute turnround on many services at Bradford Forster Square and Leeds, all lines were integrated and timetabled to go along all legs in order.
Some commuter trains were a two-car 142 unit or a 321.
Eventually the timetable needed to have extra units in service to allow for new stations at Apperley Bridge and KLF, extra turnaround time at Bradford to 18 minutes, and splitting the LDS – Ilkley/Skipton services from the Bradford services.

Future
The present 3-car 331/0 boards (including Doncaster) will presumably become 4-car 333/0 boards.
Platforms are currently being extended at many stations to allow for 6-car operation on the LDS – Ilkley/Skipton services .

 

[BoroAndy]

Good to see the return of Scarborough to Manchester trains, hourly for most of the day. But, are these nearly all 185s or will there be an increase in 802s? Also, good to see full use of TMD overnight, again, is this for 185s only? Apologies if these questions already asked.

 

[3RDGEN]

Good to see the return of Scarborough to Manchester trains, hourly for most of the day. But, are these nearly all 185s or will there be an increase in 802s? Also, good to see full use of TMD overnight, again, is this for 185s only? Apologies if these questions already asked.

The TPE diagrams available at "https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/diagrams_from_dec_2024_jun_2025_2026" show one 802 diagram forming the 11:54 & 17:54 services off Scarborough. The others are 185's with the odd double sets at peak times booked.

 

[greyman42]

It seems like that on so many peak trains into London now and business travel seems to be picking up no end. I try to tell myself we have been bordering a recession and historically these trains always suffered at such times. It’s not all down to the Covid effect.

Re train travel, I have not seen any sign of a recession or cost of living crisis.

 

[Kite159]

The TPE diagrams available at "https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/diagrams_from_dec_2024_jun_2025_2026" show one 802 diagram forming the 11:54 & 17:54 services off Scarborough. The others are 185's with the odd double sets at peak times booked.

Ah good, I was under the impression that 802s would stop running to Scarborough from December and instead run towards Hull.

Better a 5 coach unit than a single 185

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Are we confident that the 802/2 fleet actually has the reliability to maintain three diagrams on Hull, one diagram on Scarborough, and the usual rogue Edinburgh ECML and WCML diagrams on top of all of the Newcastle Liverpool runs?

 

[3RDGEN]

Are we confident that the 802/2 fleet actually has the reliability to maintain three diagrams on Hull, one diagram on Scarborough, and the usual rogue Edinburgh ECML and WCML diagrams on top of all of the Newcastle Liverpool runs?

It's 14 diagrams from 19 units, assuming the battery test unit reverts to standard, so that's 74% availability which is pathetic. If Hitachi can't achieve that they need to hand the keys back, the 185's are diagrammed at 90% availability on weekdays.

 

[dk1]

Re train travel, I have not seen any sign of a recession or cost of living crisis.

Me neither. It’s just something the media like to spout on about for some reason only known to themselves.

 

[paulmch]

It seems like that on so many peak trains into London now and business travel seems to be picking up no end. I try to tell myself we have been bordering a recession and historically these trains always suffered at such times. It’s not all down to the Covid effect.

This month's MR has a feature on the increase in industry revenue in the last quarter - revenue from business travellers is up 25% and is now worth about £1billion!