Declassified coaches

[cactustwirly]

What are the rules regarding declassified coaches?
We were travelling on a GWR HST with a declassified coach, which was clearly labelled 'coach F', the guard kicked us out.
Would they be able to charge us for 1st?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

What are the rules regarding declassified coaches?
We were travelling on a GWR HST with a declassified coach, which was clearly labelled 'coach F', the guard kicked us out.
Would they be able to charge us for 1st?

If the train is listed as having first class in the timetable then whether or not it actually is first class will depend on the signage (if any), and if so, whether there is a notice (e.g. on the PIS) telling people first is declassified - as happens on the Class 700s.

 

[cactustwirly]

If the train is listed as having first class in the timetable then whether or not it actually is first class will depend on the signage (if any), and if so, whether there is a notice (e.g. on the PIS) telling people first is declassified - as happens on the Class 700s.

But coach F is a standard class coach on GWR, and it was in the middle of the standard class accomodation

 

[yorkie]

What are the rules regarding declassified coaches?
We were travelling on a GWR HST with a declassified coach, which was clearly labelled 'coach F', the guard kicked us out.
Would they be able to charge us for 1st?

If it was in the middle of the standard class coaches then I'd be tempted to pay the extra then claim a refund.

Problem is, it's much harder to get them to take a complaint seriously if you aren't actually charged anything. However the experience of being chucked out should be compensated for.

Good luck complaining to GWR though; they have been caught treating several passengers appaulingly recently.

 

[Mag_seven]

If it was a genuine GWR 1st class coach there should have been a customer host present dispensing complimentary items. I somehow suspect this wasn't the case.

 

[cactustwirly]

If it was a genuine GWR 1st class coach there should have been a customer host present dispensing complimentary items.

There wasn't one...

 

[Mag_seven]

I suspect this should have been a genuine declassified coach but for whatever reason the TM decided it wasn't going to be!

 

[30907]

What was the indication that it was declassified?

 

[Western Sunset]

Presumably its position in the train formation.....

 

[cactustwirly]

What was the indication that it was declassified?

Was labelled as Coach F which is the standard class unreserved coach, and it was in the middle of standard accommodation

 

[Bletchleyite]

Was labelled as Coach F which is the standard class unreserved coach, and it was in the middle of standard accommodation

I don’t see why it’s hard to print labels saying “Standard Class” and whack them up.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Coach lettering doesn't influence the classification. It has to be explicitly declassified. Usually done by taping over the 1 on the outside. If not, and it was not explicitly declassified by the TM or by any other obvious means they are within their rights to hold it as first class accommodation

 

[cactustwirly]

Coach lettering doesn't influence the classification. It has to be explicitly declassified. Usually done by taping over the 1 on the outside. If not, and it was not explicitly declassified by the TM or by any other obvious means they are within their rights to hold it as first class accommodation

Even though the lettering had been deliberately changed from 'K'?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I sometimes wonder if TOCs actually like confusing people.

Even writing out a couple of bits of A4 with "Standard Class" in pen and sellotaping them to the windows would have been better.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Even though the lettering had been deliberately changed from 'K'?

Was the external 1 taped over? And were any of the "this is first class" signs altered? I ask as this is what the depot does to declassify. If it wasn't then the fact the lettering was changed is by the by. whether it would usually be a coach K isn't relevant, as even if it was being used as an extra 1st coach, it would need altering to prevent 2 Ks being in the set.

 

[tiptoptaff]

I sometimes wonder if TOCs actually like confusing people.

Even writing out a couple of bits of A4 with "Standard Class" in pen and sellotaping them to the windows would have been better.

Effort is usually made by the depot to clearly indicate it is meant to be declassified. Hence I am asking if that was done so here.

 

[cactustwirly]

Was the external 1 taped over? And were any of the "this is first class" signs altered? I ask as this is what the depot does to declassify. If it wasn't then the fact the lettering was changed is by the by. whether it would usually be a coach K isn't relevant, as even if it was being used as an extra 1st coach, it would need altering to prevent 2 Ks being in the set.

But was in the middle of standard class, and the train already had the 1.5 coaches of first class

 

[tiptoptaff]

But was in the middle of standard class, and the train already had the 1.5 coaches of first class

Please answer my question as your refusal to do so, leads me to believe it wasn't and therefore could have been used as 1st at the discretion of the TM - and F isn't in the "middle" of standard, it ajoins 1st (provided that there ins't a composite K - and if there was there would have been a mini-buffet F, and this wouldn't have been an F)

 

[AlterEgo]

But was in the middle of standard class, and the train already had the 1.5 coaches of first class

It doesn't matter where the coach is in the train formation. It's a first class coach and as you seem to indicate through omission, wasn't noted as being declassified in any way shape or form.

First class is normally at the south end of a 390, but if they're in reverse, that doesn't make the leading four first class coaches standard class.

 

[Flying Snail]

If you had a reservation for a seat in "F" then there would be a reasonable argument for occupying your assigned seat, otherwise as it appears the coach was not declassified by covering the numerous "1st Class" signs then you essentially ignored the valid notices and plonked yourself in 1st. Be thankful it was a TM that ejected you rather than a RPI demanding a fine.

 

[cactustwirly]

If you had a reservation for a seat in "F" then there would be a reasonable argument for occupying your assigned seat, otherwise as it appears the coach was not declassified by covering the numerous "1st Class" signs then you essentially ignored the valid notices and plonked yourself in 1st. Be thankful it was a TM that ejected you rather than a RPI demanding a fine.

Well an RPI can try but I don't think it would get very far...

 

[cactustwirly]

It doesn't matter where the coach is in the train formation. It's a first class coach and as you seem to indicate through omission, wasn't noted as being declassified in any way shape or form.

First class is normally at the south end of a 390, but if they're in reverse, that doesn't make the leading four first class coaches standard class.

But that isn't a correct analogy, it's like a pendolino having those normal 4 coaches, plus another first class coach instead of coach C, for example.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But that isn't a correct analogy, it's like a pendolino having those normal 4 coaches, plus another first class coach instead of coach C, for example.

In the days of Mk3s it wasn't unusual to find an FO in the formation instead of a TSO on the WCML, but it was always clearly marked as such and had the classic marker of the antimacassars being removed.

 

[AlterEgo]

But that isn't a correct analogy, it's like a pendolino having those normal 4 coaches, plus another first class coach instead of coach C, for example.

Still wouldn't be declassified if there were no notices, announcements or publications saying it was. It's a first class coach.

 

[tiptoptaff]

@cactustwirly Please, answer, was the coach in any way obviously marked as declassified? Yes, or no? Specifically, in any of the ways I have described. And in the case of the RPI, in absence of the obvious signs it is declassified, they would have grounds to pursue you for travelling in First Class with a STD ticket. The defence "It says F on it and F is usually STD" is what wouldn't get very far. With F being the unreserved, you can't even argue you have a valid STD reservation for that coach

 

[cactustwirly]

@cactustwirly Please, answer, was the coach in any way obviously marked as declassified? Yes, or no? Specifically, in any of the ways I have described. And in the case of the RPI, in absence of the obvious signs it is declassified, they would have grounds to pursue you for travelling in First Class with a STD ticket. The defence "It says F on it and F is usually STD" is what wouldn't get very far. With F being the unreserved, you can't even argue you have a valid STD reservation for that coach

No, but it could be argued that the fact that 'F' is a standard class coach, there was no advertised 'first class host', and it was in the middle of standard, then it can be argued that it was declassified.

 

[tiptoptaff]

No, but it could be argued that the fact that 'F' is a standard class coach, there was no advertised 'first class host', and it was in the middle of standard, then it can be argued that it was declassified.

There were are then

 

[tiptoptaff]

No, but it could be argued that the fact that 'F' is a standard class coach, there was no advertised 'first class host', and it was in the middle of standard, then it can be argued that it was declassified.

The Host argument isn't a valid one and as I have said, it is directly coupled to the First class section, not the "middle" of Standard.

It was not declassified, the TM moved you. That is that, no more to be said about it

 

[cactustwirly]

The Host argument isn't a valid one and as I have said, it is directly coupled to the First class section, not the "middle" of Standard.

It was not declassified, the TM moved you. That is that, no more to be said about it

But it was coupled to the standard end of the real coach 'K'

 

[tiptoptaff]

But it was coupled to the standard end of the real coach 'K'

Composite K? Unusual. None the less- it was not clearly marked as declassified, and so wasn't. You were rightly asked to move. You should expect nothing in the way of compensation from GWR.

The First Host turn can regularly be uncovered, doesn't make First a free-for-all.