Definition of a single ticket?

[MKB]

The National Conditions of Carriage refer to single tickets and return tickets without defining what these terms mean.

For a recent return journey booked with Virgin Trains that was delayed by more than 2 hours on the outbound, I held an SVH type ticket for each direction, outbound with railcard discount, return without (as it was before 09:30).

I can't see how a half-saver ticket can reasonably be classed as a single ticket for the purpose of Delay Repay. It cannot be bought for a one-way journey, has to be bought for a return journey and is priced at half the SVR return price. (The situation is not so clear cut when an SVH is paired with an Advance, but that's not the case here.)

Unsurprisingly, the TOC (London Midland) has paid out Delay Repay based on outbound journey only.

Of course, this is symptomatic of the bigger inequity of why passengers holding a return ticket should be entitled to more compensation than those holding a single ticket when they experience the same amount of delay.

 

[gray1404]

They've look at the ticket you were using for the leg of the journey subject to delay and seen this is was an Off Peak single and paid out the full amount of that ticket, on the basis that it is a full returnd once you reached an hour (for the ticket being used, not the overall combination for a return journey). You could explain to them the impact the 2 hour delay had on your day out and perhaps they have some good will.

You could get back in touch with London Midland and ask them to look at the claim again. They are under no duty to provide more however. A similar situation comes up when a passenger on 2 Advance singles is delayed on one leg of their journey in that delay repay is only payable for the one half (single) of the journey and not the combination of the 2 combined.

 

[MKB]

Thanks. I've gone back to LM to see what they say, although I did explain all this on my original application and they ignored it. (I also asked for payment rather than vouchers which they also ignored.)

The situation with two Advances is different in that you can buy them independently as one-way journeys, so are clearly Singles. Whereas with the half-saver, rebadging it as "Off-peak single (online only)" is a bit of a stretch as it doesn't change the fact that it isn't actually a single ticket by any normal understanding of what a single ticket is.

 

[Camden]

What's the deal with these save halves? I can understand in some situations they might be useful (where you have to buy a peak ticket on one leg, but can get away with an off peak coming back), but with an ordinary return ticket travel back is usually permitted within 1 month. If you have two saver halves, does this mean you're restricted to travel on the day?

I can't see how on Virgin train's website you can buy a straightforward return ticket.

 

[najaB]

The National Conditions of Carriage refer to single tickets and return tickets without defining what these terms mean.

Do the two coupons have the same ticket number or are they different?

 

[swt_passenger]

What's the deal with these save halves? I can understand in some situations they might be useful (where you have to buy a peak ticket on one leg, but can get away with an off peak coming back), but with an ordinary return ticket travel back is usually permitted within 1 month. If you have two saver halves, does this mean you're restricted to travel on the day?

I can't see how on Virgin train's website you can buy a straightforward return ticket.

AIUI from previous discussions they do not actually sell you two SVHs - even if it looks like that on their stupid website you'll actually get sold an off-peak return.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Of course, this is symptomatic of the bigger inequity of why passengers holding a return ticket should be entitled to more compensation than those holding a single ticket when they experience the same amount of delay.

There is also inequility when the delay is between 30 minutes and one hour, of course that benefits the person holding an Off-Peak Single (not online) over the Off-Peak Return, due to the comparative prices, and doubtless is also inconsequential in your view.

Thanks. I've gone back to LM to see what they say, although I did explain all this on my original application and they ignored it. (I also asked for payment rather than vouchers which they also ignored.)

The situation with two Advances is different in that you can buy them independently as one-way journeys, so are clearly Singles. Whereas with the half-saver, rebadging it as "Off-peak single (online only)" is a bit of a stretch as it doesn't change the fact that it isn't actually a single ticket by any normal understanding of what a single ticket is.

Whilst the Off-Peak Single (SVH) can only be bought at the same time as a single for travel in the opposite direction, it is as much a single ticket as the accompanying ticket, it only allows a journey from the origin to the destination, in one direction only. The fact that it cannot be purchased on it's own does not mean that it is not a single ticket, it is simply a condition to compensate for the lower fare paid.

I also presume that buying two singles worked out cheaper than one return. If this is the case, had your journey been on time you actually benefit from this arrangement, so is this not just wanting the best of both worlds?

What's the deal with these save halves? I can understand in some situations they might be useful (where you have to buy a peak ticket on one leg, but can get away with an off peak coming back), but with an ordinary return ticket travel back is usually permitted within 1 month. If you have two saver halves, does this mean you're restricted to travel on the day?

I can't see how on Virgin train's website you can buy a straightforward return ticket.

The idea was that they were to be used with Advance fares where travel in one direction could not stick to a specified time, or the Advance fares had sold out for that direction of travel. It also provided incentive for people to switch to buying online rather than at a ticket office.

Most online journey planners, however, are only as good as the person programming them and so things like this occur every now and again.

 

[bb21]

I am leaning towards the opinion that a Saver Half is a single ticket, for the reason of a separate ticket number to the single ticket purchased for the opposite direction, and that the ticket says "Off-Peak Single" quite clearly.

While I think it is true that they effectively form one return journey, I don't think as "ticket" goes, they are one. Whether the ticket can be purchased separately is a red-herring I feel. I don't think anyone would even attempt to argue that a book of Carnets together constitute one ticket, and parallels can be drawn between that and your case.

 

[najaB]

I am leaning towards the opinion that a Saver Half is a single ticket, for the reason of a separate ticket number to the single ticket purchased for the opposite direction, and that the ticket says "Off-Peak Single" quite clearly.

If the ticket numbers are different, then they are two tickets. Can't see how you could argue otherwise.

 

[causton]

I would say the fact that either on the old style tickets it says SINGLE in the bottom right, and on the new style tickets it says Off-Peak Single at the top, then it is a single.

 

[gray1404]

I too am of the view it is a single, even though a ticket for the other direction of travel needs to be issued at the time. It sounds like LM have paid out correctly.

 

[cool110]

I would say the fact that either on the old style tickets it says SINGLE in the bottom right, and on the new style tickets it says Off-Peak Single at the top, then it is a single.

That is a good point but don't forget that Merseyrail day savers bought from other TOCs print as old style singles instead of the day travelcard like format.

 

[najaB]

That is a good point but don't forget that Merseyrail day savers bought from other TOCs print as old style singles instead of the day travelcard like format.

Do they actually say 'Single' on them as the ticket type?

Edit: Found a couple images online - some do have SINGLE but the ticket type is 'Day Ticket' and the destination isn't a single station.

 

[bb21]

Wouldn't surprise me. SPT Roundabout print as singles.

 

[MKB]

I would separate what programmers of ticket machines do from the legal aspect.

As bb21 has joint pointed out, there are already examples of ticket types that are clearly not singles which, presumably for reasons of convenience or laziness, someone has decided to have the tickets coded so as to print "SGL" on them. Doing so, does not necessarily make them legally single tickets (in my opinion).

I was trying to get to what the legal definition of a single ticket might be, since the NCoC do not contain one.

Having separate ticket numbers for outbound and return portions, as some have indicated, might be a workable definition, but not very practicable, since you don't see the ticket numbers at the point of (online) purchase.

However, if I were asked to write a definition for the NCoC, it would be something along the lines of saying that a single ticket is one that allows travel from an origin to a destination and does not require or allow for any additional travel back from the destination.

 

[najaB]

Having separate ticket numbers for outbound and return portions, as some have indicated, might be a workable definition, but not very practicable, since you don't see the ticket numbers at the point of (online) purchase.

Why does what you see at the point of purchase actually matter?

 

[MKB]

Last month I received a response from Transport Focus that found in my favour. The relevant bits of their reply are:

I reviewed your correspondence and contacted both our own Policy Team and London Midland to investigate further.

Our Policy Team confirmed with the Association of Train Companies (ATOC) that they would view a ticket which could only be purchased with a return journey, as a return journey, regardless of the ticket being named a Single. As this ticket combination is available only for a two-way journey this therefore should count as a Return ticket, rather than two Singles for the entire journey. As per this viewpoint, they would expect train operators to identify this ticket type at the point of claiming and pay redress accordingly.

I have relayed this conclusion to London Midland’s Customer Relation’s Manager and their Pricing Manager and asked that the correct compensation be sent to you. London Midland’s Pricing Manager believed their original stance to be correct, however is happy to concede to ATOC’s guidance.

Happily London Midland paid the addiitional Delay Repay this past week, albeit as "a goodwill gesture" and quoting the incorrect reason why they had changed their mind ("technicalities" due to using a railcard!).

However, should anyone else need to claim Delay Repay from any ATOC member where half-saver (SVH) tickets are involved, you should now be good to claim for the return journey. If necessary, you can reference Transport Focus case reference TFO-29734-T9C5Q6

Martin.

 

[yorkie]

A good result.

As a further "goodwill gesture" in return, you could inform London Midland that you're waiving a £10 admin fee that would otherwise have applied, had they not paid out

 

[fandroid]

I had a similar(ish) case resolved by appeal to Transport focus. I tried to buy a return on VTWC' s site and could not find any ! They were very well hidden, I found later. So I bought two of those SVH tickets. In the end I didn't travel, and didn't even retrieve the the paper tickets from a machine. Even so VTWC had no facility for claiming a refund online and I had a tough conversation on the phone with a call centre. They insisted on charging me 2x£10 admin fees. I appealed via Transport Focus and eventually got that other £10 back.
,