Delay Compensation - A "secret" of the rail network?

[transmanche]

Well that's up to them. While they have to provide compensation in line with the Conditions of Carriage it's their decision to go beyond these requirements

It's a condition of the franchise. DfT has been adding it in as franchises come up for renewal.

I've not seen any airlines advertising this, in fact, from what I've read on the web, they seem to be very reluctant to pay out anything at all.

The rail compensation schemes are in the public domain, and I am sure I have seen leaflets on display in both Llanelli and Swansea stations

You may have seen posters similar to this at airports:

Although I think there's a lot more that airlines and in particular airports could do to publicise passenger rights (being as that's where passengers are generally going to be when they need information about their rights). The EU has a website and a range of mobile apps.

 

[westv]

Who decides when compensation kicks in? Some offer it after 30 mins but others only after 60 mins. Is that in the franchise?

 

[transmanche]

Who decides when compensation kicks in? Some offer it after 30 mins but others only after 60 mins. Is that in the franchise?

It's down to whether they offer the minimum compensation under the NRCoC (which IIRC dates from the Passenger's Charter in BR days), or the enhanced levels offered as part of Delay Repay (which is what DfT requires for new franchises).

 

[westv]

It's down to whether they offer the minimum compensation under the NRCoC (which IIRC dates from the Passenger's Charter in BR days), or the enhanced levels offered as part of Delay Repay (which is what DfT requires for new franchises).

Ok. Thanks.

 

[Muzer]

It's down to whether they offer the minimum compensation under the NRCoC (which IIRC dates from the Passenger's Charter in BR days), or the enhanced levels offered as part of Delay Repay (which is what DfT requires for new franchises).

Indeed. Most Passenger Charters of TOCs, even those not on Delay Repay, still offer substantially more than the minimum.

 

[Welshman]

Returning to the original question-

In my experience, different TOCs seem to have different practices.

On one or two occasions, I've told neighbouring passengers myself of the scheme when no announcement was made. Not that I think they paid much attention!

On the other hand, there's the well-reported at the time incident in the early days of GNER of Christopher Garnett himself coming down the train and handing-out the claim forms.

 

[talldave]

I'm often amazed how Southern appear to blunder into Delay Repay situations that could have easily been avoided.

For example, since the Gatwick Express runs every 15 minutes, it's illogical for one to depart 25 minutes late - since whatever problems have caused that delay are bound to take the total delay over 30 minutes by the time it reaches Victoria. If they cancelled the original train and ran it as the next one, 10 minutes late, they'd stand a chance of not slipping into the Delay Repay zone!

The fact that they don't makes me think that most people are not aware of the 30 minute rule.

 

[DJL]

I'm often amazed how Southern appear to blunder into Delay Repay situations that could have easily been avoided.

For example, since the Gatwick Express runs every 15 minutes, it's illogical for one to depart 25 minutes late - since whatever problems have caused that delay are bound to take the total delay over 30 minutes by the time it reaches Victoria. If they cancelled the original train and ran it as the next one, 10 minutes late, they'd stand a chance of not slipping into the Delay Repay zone!

The fact that they don't makes me think that most people are not aware of the 30 minute rule.

2 reasons why they don't do that.

1: If they cancel the first train then an entire train worth of seats vanishes into thin air.
2: It can result in the train and its crew becoming displaced.
At first glance that might seem to be less applicable on Gatwick express where the trains run a single route but actually I think some services go further than others.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If they cancelled the original train and ran it as the next one, 10 minutes late, they'd stand a chance of not slipping into the Delay Repay zone!

Delay Repay is paid out according to the delay to your journey, not the delay to a specific train. In your example, it doesn't matter if the xx00 is cancelled or runs 25 minutes late, if the xx15 train runs to time then Delay Repay would not be an issue.

 

[Greenback]

Although I think there's a lot more that airlines and in particular airports could do to publicise passenger rights (being as that's where passengers are generally going to be when they need information about their rights). The EU has a website and a range of mobile apps.

That's my point. It's not the airlines publicising these regulations. Being as air is in competition with rail on quite a few routes throughout Europe, for their to be a level playing field all of the companies whether air or rail should be treated the same across the EU.

To me, it is for regulatory bodies to advertise compensation schemes, not the operators themselves, who are best served focusing on their services.

 

[talldave]

Delay Repay is paid out according to the delay to your journey, not the delay to a specific train. In your example, it doesn't matter if the xx00 is cancelled or runs 25 minutes late, if the xx15 train runs to time then Delay Repay would not be an issue.

Southern don't know if I was aiming for the earlier or later train. But the fact that the train that arrives for me to board is 25 minutes late, means I claim for that train - and not the one I would have got on if things had been running to schedule.

Since the only reference for calculating the delay is the scheduled and actual times of the train, it IS the delay to the train that matters. If I'm on a train that is arriving 30 minutes or more past its scheduled arrival time, I claim. The fact that I may have missed that train had it been on time is irrelevant.

Hence my point that if they'd cancelled the first service and run it as the later service (same physical train), I'd not be able to claim.

Southern regularly make it clear by their actions that they run the service for the convenience of their staff and rolling stock and not the passengers. Hence one of my previous farces with them swapping us three times between Gatwick Express trains at Victoria as they had to cancel services. It never occurred to them to keep the passengers on the one train and simply send that train out first - whatever timed departure it ended up being.

 

[island]

EU regulation 261 of 2004 obliges airlines causing substantial delays or cancellations to give passengers information about their rights.

EU regulation 1371 of 2007 places the same obligations on rail operators, but the UK has opted out of it for domestic journeys.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Southern don't know if I was aiming for the earlier or later train. But the fact that the train that arrives for me to board is 25 minutes late, means I claim for that train - and not the one I would have got on if things had been running to schedule.

You can claim all you want, but the test is the delay to your journey not the delay to a specific train.

If the xx00 is delayed by more than 30 minutes, but the xx15 (and, indeed, xx30) ran to time, and you have an interavailable ticket, then the delay to your journey is less than thirty minutes. Therefore no refund, as the xx15 would only leave you fifteen minutes late at your destination.

 

[bb21]

Southern don't know if I was aiming for the earlier or later train. But the fact that the train that arrives for me to board is 25 minutes late, means I claim for that train - and not the one I would have got on if things had been running to schedule.

No, because had you aimed for that train, you would have arrived in ample time to have caught the train that left 10 minutes earlier, assuming that they ran to a 15-minute headway.

Since the only reference for calculating the delay is the scheduled and actual times of the train, it IS the delay to the train that matters. If I'm on a train that is arriving 30 minutes or more past its scheduled arrival time, I claim. The fact that I may have missed that train had it been on time is irrelevant.

I quote from Southern website:

Delay Repay

If we have delayed your journey by more than 30 minutes (including if your train was cancelled), then Southern will compensate you. You can claim compensation from us under our Delay Repay scheme.

Your journey was not delayed by 30 minutes if you arrived intending to catch whichever train, and a delayed service from 30 minutes earlier rolled in.

Your claim in this post is probably one of the most ridiculous I have ever had the misfortune to read.

 

[talldave]

You can claim all you want, but the test is the delay to your journey not the delay to a specific train.

If the xx00 is delayed by more than 30 minutes, but the xx15 (and, indeed, xx30) ran to time, and you have an interavailable ticket, then the delay to your journey is less than thirty minutes. Therefore no refund, as the xx15 would only leave you fifteen minutes late at your destination.

OK, I think we're talking at crossed purposes. I'm citing the scenario where following some major network problem, Southern decide to run their trains late for the rest of the day, rather than "cancel and catch up".

So, although I was planning on getting on the xx15, the first train that appears (at xx25) is the xx00, running 25 mins late - so I get on it. It runs slow and arrives at Victoria more than 30 mins after it's originally scheduled arrival time. I have to assume that the xx15 and xx30 run similarly late - but that's irrelevant to me as I got the first train that appeared.

So my journey is delayed by around 15 minutes, but because I'm on a train that is running over 30 minutes late against it's scheduled time, I can claim.

I've done it and they pay. They don't know that I wasn't on the platform from xx00 onwards - and their claim form takes no account of that, it simply works on scheduled vs actual times.

 

[bb21]

So my journey is delayed by around 15 minutes, but because I'm on a train that is running over 30 minutes late against it's scheduled time, I can claim.

As long as you think that fraud is acceptable, yes.

I've done it and they pay. They don't know that I wasn't on the platform from xx00 onwards - and their claim form takes no account of that, it simply works on scheduled vs actual times.

That is assuming that no train left between xx00 and xx25. I would strongly recommend that you don't get too clever, as one day you will be caught. When that happens, I doubt that you will get much sympathy.

 

[Tetchytyke]

So my journey is delayed by around 15 minutes, but because I'm on a train that is running over 30 minutes late against it's scheduled time, I can claim.

I've done it and they pay. They don't know that I wasn't on the platform from xx00 onwards - and their claim form takes no account of that, it simply works on scheduled vs actual times.

Your journey is not delayed by more than thirty minutes- it is delayed by fifteen- and your claim is not eligible. If you were truthful about which journey you were intending to make then you would not receive a payout.

Your dishonesty in completing the form may or may not be detected, but the terms of delay repay are that the delay to your journey is what counts.

This works the other way when a 10-15 minute delay on a service forces you to miss a less frequent connection. Although the delayed train was not more than 30 minutes late, your journey was delayed.

 

[talldave]

Your claim in this post is probably one of the most ridiculous I have ever had the misfortune to read.

Thanks - are you always so abusive to posters on this forum?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Your journey is not delayed by more than thirty minutes- it is delayed by fifteen- and your claim is not eligible. If you were truthful about which journey you were intending to make then you would not receive a payout.

Your dishonesty in completing the form may or may not be detected, but the terms of delay repay are that the delay to your journey is what counts.

This works the other way when a 10-15 minute delay on a service forces you to miss a less frequent connection. Although the delayed train was not more than 30 minutes late, your journey was delayed.

OK, point accepted. But when they thrust a form into my hands on arrival, the temptation to fill in it was just too much!

When they get their act together with "the key" for London tickets (Feb 2014?), I guess they'll see exactly what time I passed through the barriers.

 

[bb21]

It's called telling you the truth, because you seem unable to grasp just how wrong it is with what you are suggesting and how much trouble it can land you, or anyone who may stumble across your post by accident, in, should they follow your suggestion.

This forum does not condone illegal activities. If you want people to agree with you on things like this, you will need to go elsewhere.

 

[orpine]

It seems important to you to prove the point that the rail industry wants to keep it a secret in spite of the evidence to the contrary. You clearly have an idea of what it means to be "readily available", but that doesn't seem to match up with other people's ideas. That's fair enough.

I'm not trying to show there's a grand conspiracy (I doubt there is). However I again re-iterate the evidence that no-one I've ever asked has been aware of it and that materials about it are hidden out of public sight.
My use of the word "secret" in the thread title is in quotes. It's a de-facto secret, not a de-jure one.

Oh, and a few seconds with google shows that some places do require refund policies be publically made aware - http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/legal_guides/s-6.shtml - yes it's California, not the UK, but I have little doubt there are some similar requirements for some industries here. Your point was that "it never happens" - clearly it does.
I'd also note that just about every e-retailer has a "refunds" section on their website that's linked to from their homepage.

Why is the railway being singled out? Why should the TOCs be made to do this when the insurance industry and others are not required to?

Again, you're wrong. The Insurance industry for example is required to produce a "Key Facts" document about each policy - they can't just hide it all in the small print. The key facts includes stuff they'd prefer to hide like exclusions.
Also, island pointed out it is a EU requirement for trains and planes (thanks Island, interesting to know!).

I find it quite Ironic that you're trying to defend Delay Repay when you're not actually fully aware of it - by which I mean, clearly whatever means you are currently engaging in to be aware of it (the ones you are espousing as being satisfactory) aren't actually sufficient.

 

[O L Leigh]

I'm not trying to show there's a grand conspiracy (I doubt there is). However I again re-iterate the evidence that no-one I've ever asked has been aware of it and that materials about it are hidden out of public sight.

And I state again that your idea of "in plain sight" seems to be different from most other people's ideas. That people are not aware of the right to a refund has more to say about the level of interest they pay in what their fare buys them. Information about a passenger's rights and responsibilities are not hidden out of public sight at all, being freely available online or in leaflet form from stations.

Oh, and a few seconds with google shows that some places do require refund policies be publically made aware - http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/legal_guides/s-6.shtml - yes it's California, not the UK, but I have little doubt there are some similar requirements for some industries here. Your point was that "it never happens" - clearly it does.

The UK rail industry is not governed by California state law or US federal law. Dragging up links to the California state legislature is meaningless.

I'd also note that just about every e-retailer has a "refunds" section on their website that's linked to from their homepage.

So it's just one step to a statement of the consumer's rights, just as it is by turning over your train ticket and entering the web address printed on the back or going up to the ticket office window and asking for a copy.

If anything, Amazon's homepage is a bit of a monster and you have to scroll quite some way before you find a link to a "returns" page. Refunds are not actually mentioned at all on the homepage.

Again, you're wrong. The Insurance industry for example is required to produce a "Key Facts" document about each policy - they can't just hide it all in the small print. The key facts includes stuff they'd prefer to hide like exclusions.

Most policies are sent electronically these days, so it's just another link on the e-mail.

I find it quite Ironic that you're trying to defend Delay Repay when you're not actually fully aware of it - by which I mean, clearly whatever means you are currently engaging in to be aware of it (the ones you are espousing as being satisfactory) aren't actually sufficient.

I'm well aware of the conditions of carriage and how to access a copy of it to ascertain my rights and responsibilities. I'm also aware that different operators have policies over and above what the conditions of carriage require and how to get the details of those. Have I not already said so already?

O L Leigh

 

[orpine]

Information about a passenger's rights and responsibilities are not hidden out of public sight at all, being freely available online or in leaflet form from stations.

When you have to ask for it it is by definition, "hidden out of public sight". I again reference you to the second busiest provincial station in the country - Birmingham New Street.
Bonus points for the fact some years ago I asked to see their copy of the NRCoC - they didn't have one!

If anything, Amazon's homepage is a bit of a monster and you have to scroll quite some way before you find a link to a "returns" page. Refunds are not actually mentioned at all on the homepage.

It's at the bottom where I expected it to be. "Returns Are Easy". Compare that to Cross Country where it's not even on the Site-Map (it's hidden away in the "contact us"), or Chiltern Railways where ... actually, I can't even find it on there! Not even with their site-search function for either "Delay Repay" or "refund". Not in the site-map either.

So tell me again they're not making it hard to find.

I'm well aware of the conditions of carriage and how to access a copy of it to ascertain my rights and responsibilities. I'm also aware that different operators have policies over and above what the conditions of carriage require and how to get the details of those. Have I not already said so already?

Maybe, but you mis-conveyed that in your earlier messages. Both of the following statements are false. The first only applies to some TOC's, the second is 100% false because it's a DfT requirement for the franchise.

Not all delays entitle passengers to a refund. As it states in the Conditions of Carriage, it is only those where the railway is at fault. Those caused by outside factors (e.g. suicide, adverse weather, lineside fires, etc) do not require the TOCs to refund passengers delayed. So the platform staff were actually entirely correct.

Well that's up to them. While they have to provide compensation in line with the Conditions of Carriage it's their decision to go beyond these requirements.

 

[O L Leigh]

Your definitions are impossible and, frankly, I'm getting fed up of repeating myself over and over.

The fact that you are dissatisfied with how and where information is displayed is not the same thing as it being hidden away. I've had to ask for copies of timetables and tube maps in the past, but I don't think you could suggest that these are "hidden out of public sight".

Nor should you infer anything into my lack of total clarity about the delay repay procedure. I find it sufficient to know that such processes exist and how to go about accessing the information without the need to obsess about the why's and wherefore's of who imposes them or precisely what they say.

How did I find out about the process in the first place...? Strange to say that it was from seeing leaflets in a rack at Liverpool Street.

O L Leigh

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . I'm getting fed up of repeating myself over and over.

Indeed.

I'm not trying to show there's a grand conspiracy (I doubt there is). However I again re-iterate the evidence that no-one I've ever asked has been aware of it and that materials about it are hidden out of public sight.

You have asked on here, and been given first hand reports from those people you have asked that Delay Repay forms have been handed out on board, have been announced on-board, and have been handed out on the platform on arrival. I can confirm that I have experienced all three myself.

I come across references to the scheme frequently on my travels and I have read on here that other have too. It flies in the face of the facts to suggest that "the evidence" is that "no-one I've asked has ever been aware of it". How often do we have to provide "the evidence" that we ARE aware of it?
And so are thousands of rail passengers - those that use the service and those that don't.

Delay Repay is a widely known feature of UK rail travel. The numbers are the evidence.

 

[jon0844]

FCC has often handed out forms at stations, or put up apology posters and given details on how to claim.

It's a bit unfair to expect every TOC to have stacks of forms on hand everywhere, any more than having every pocket timetable within easy reach.

The information is all easily found, and while I am sure there are many people that don't know about it, that doesn't mean it's hidden away. It just means people aren't bothering to find out.

 

[orpine]

Your definitions are impossible and, frankly, I'm getting fed up of repeating myself over and over.

The fact that you are dissatisfied with how and where information is displayed is not the same thing as it being hidden away. I've had to ask for copies of timetables and tube maps in the past, but I don't think you could suggest that these are "hidden out of public sight".

I hate to be pedantic, but let's try using a dictionary shall we? The word Hidden:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hidden

Or my printed 2000 page OED:

past participle of HIDE; kept out of sight

Argue all you want, but when something is out of sight it is hidden. And I have already demonstrated how these things are kept out of sight at many locations. Using the logic I'm seeing here, Pirate Treasure isn't hidden because there's a map telling you where it is and you can easily go and get it any time you want.

You have asked on here, and been given first hand reports from those people you have asked that Delay Repay forms have been handed out on board, have been announced on-board, and have been handed out on the platform on arrival. I can confirm that I have experienced all three myself.

I'm not denying that some TOC's do do that (East Coast for one - and you're on the ECML, I'm not). In fact I commented that earlier in this thread. I am however saying that there are other TOC's that don't have anything like that. I've certainly never encountered any of that behaviour, and the websites for my local TOC's don't have delay repay easily findable.

I'll go and ask Passenger Focus. Rather than anecdotes we need data.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I hate to be pedantic, but let's try using a dictionary shall we? The word Hidden:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hidden

Or my printed 2000 page OED:

Argue all you want, but when something is out of sight it is hidden. And I have already demonstrated how these things are kept out of sight at many locations. Using the logic I'm seeing here, Pirate Treasure isn't hidden because there's a map telling you where it is and you can easily go and get it any time you want.


I'm not denying that some TOC's do do that (East Coast for one - and you're on the ECML, I'm not). In fact I commented that earlier in this thread. I am however saying that there are other TOC's that don't have anything like that. I've certainly never encountered any of that behaviour, and the websites for my local TOC's don't have delay repay easily findable.

I'll go and ask Passenger Focus. Rather than anecdotes we need data.

It's a bit unfair to expect every TOC to have stacks of forms on hand everywhere

And yet they have stacks of forms for things like 2 for 1 London Trips, and the like. They could easily replace one of those stacks with the refund forms.

 

[ainsworth74]

I believe everyone has had more than ample opportunity to make their point of view clear as such this thread is now locked. If anyone has anything substantial and new to add to the discussion then please contact a member of the staff team and consideration will be given to re-opening the thread.

 

[orpine]

So, I asked the nice people at Passenger Focus who replied promptly and thoroughly (go PF! ).

Their unabridged reply, but my bold.

Thank you for your enquiry regarding passengers' awareness of their rights to compensation in the event of delay or disruption to their journey.

We share your interest in this issue and believe it is very important that passengers are aware of their rights. Better awareness and understanding would allow more passengers to make informed decisions about when to claim compensation and how much they are entitled to.

In July last year we published research that examined the issue of compensation, including passengers' awareness of their rights - Understanding rail passengers - delays and compensation<http://www.passengerfocus.org.uk/research/publications/understanding-rail-passengers-delays-and-compensation>. The key findings of this research were:

* 88 per cent of those apparently eligible for compensation for their delay did not claim.
* The main reasons given were down to a lack of awareness:
- 44 per cent did not even consider it
- 30 per cent considered it, but did not think they would be entitled.
* Once passengers have made one compensation claim they are more likely to do so again.
We believe this highlights that awareness of delay compensation is an issue where the rail industry needs to make significant improvement. We have been discussing this issue with the rail industry and anticipate that a new code of practice will be agreed this year. Amongst other improvements, the type of change we are pushing for is for:


· train staff to make announcements about compensation on delayed trains

· and/or train staff to take the details of passengers on delayed trains and process compensation automatically

· train operating companies to make it much easier to find details of how to claim online.

I think it's clear that when only 12% of eligible people seek a refund there's a serious problem with passenger awareness.

30% of the remaining 88% considered it but didn't think they would get one - that means they weren't aware of the delay repay scheme at all - if they were, they'd have known they were eligible for one. The rest probably weren't either but maybe they were just lazy or the ticket value was minimal.

 

[talldave]

Interesting that there's no mention of "didn't think it was worth the effort". For small delays (which probably account for the vast majority of entitlements to claim?) on relatively low-cost journeys, you're not actually going to receive much money for your time. Lop-off the cost of an envelope/stamp, the aggro of diverting via a pillar box, the need to wait several weeks for anything to happen and the enthusiasm wanes further!

 

[Bijgc]

What a quick reply from PF, with a take-up rate of 12%, I think there is a lot more that TOCs ought do to publicise this!

Awareness of this scheme is certainly too low, a fact that I can't help feel is enforced by talldave's post above; Delay Repay forms are provided on postable forms with freepost addresses, or can be handed into a member of station staff, so neither an envelope, nor a stamp, nor a trip to a Postbox are required. Alternatively, an online claim takes but a few seconds.