Delay repay on a split ticket

[doctor123]

I was on a Darlington to London train yesterday travelling with Virgin East Coast. As it was marginally cheaper, I split my ticket with one leg (an advance purchase) from Darlington to Peterborough and the other (an any time single) from Peterborough to London. The train was about 25 minutes late pulling into Peterborough but 40 minutes late getting into London. I've claimed Delay Repay for the whole journey as it is my understanding that the delay relates to the whole journey not just one leg of it. Does anyone know if Virgin adopt this approach or if they are likely to take a harder line and rule out the first part of my journey as it was under 30 minutes late? Thanks in advance

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

NRCoT Condition 14.1 says:

Unless shown below, you may use a combination of two or more Tickets to make a journey provided that the train services you use call at the station(s) where you change from one Ticket to another.

And VTEC's Delay Repay section of their Passenger Charter says:

30 to 59 minutes’ delay
Compensation of at least 50% of the cost of your single ticket or at least 50% of the cost of the relevant portion* of your return ticket.

*By “relevant portion” we mean the outward or return portion of a return ticket depending on whether you were delayed on your outward or return journey.

So it's about the journey in total, not the individual ticket. Since NRCoT gives you the right to make a journey using multiple tickets, your journey is from Darlington to London and your delay compensation must, accordingly, calculated on the basis of the whole cost of your journey, not just the second ticket's value.

If the availability of Delay Repay for delays of 30 minutes at 25%, rather than just 60 minutes at 25% as guaranteed as a minimum by NRCoT, influenced your buying decision, you are legally entitled to the compensation as promised, as per Section 50 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015. If it did not influence your buying decision, you have no legal entitlement as the delay is less than the 60 minutes for which the NRCoT guarantees compensation, but you should still appeal/escalate it internally from a customer service viewpoint.

Some operators are worse than others at awarding split ticket delay repay compensation, but you should nevertheless try and report back for advice if they refuse.

 

[doctor123]

NRCoT Condition 14.1 says:



And VTEC's Delay Repay section of their Passenger Charter says:





So it's about the journey in total, not the individual ticket. Since NRCoT gives you the right to make a journey using multiple tickets, your journey is from Darlington to London and your delay compensation must, accordingly, calculated on the basis of the whole cost of your journey, not just the second ticket's value.

If the availability of Delay Repay for delays of 30 minutes at 25%, rather than just 60 minutes at 25% as guaranteed as a minimum by NRCoT, influenced your buying decision, you are legally entitled to the compensation as promised, as per Section 50 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015. If it did not influence your buying decision, you have no legal entitlement as the delay is less than the 60 minutes for which the NRCoT guarantees compensation, but you should still appeal/escalate it internally from a customer service viewpoint.

Some operators are worse than others at awarding split ticket delay repay compensation, but you should nevertheless try and report back for advice if they refuse.

thank you for the advice - will come back if necessary

 

[island]

Virgin DelayRepay policy where customers choose to split tickets seems to be to evaluate each leg of the journey separately for delays. You may have an uphill battle getting anything at all – as you had an anytime ticket from Peterborough to London they would argue you could have taken an earlier train had you got to the station by the scheduled departure time of your train.

ForTheLoveOf correctly notes that DelayRepay is not a contractual entitlement unless you can prove that its availability was something you took into account when deciding to purchase your ticket. There is no case law on this subject, and opinions vary widely on what “took into account” implies – mine, which is no more or less valid than any other, is that you would need to demonstrate that you would have purchased a through ticket at a higher price or used a different mode of transport had you been aware that Virgin offered compensation for a 30-minute delay rather than a 60-minute delay.

It would be good to know how you get on.

 

[doctor123]

Have finally received a fairly incoherent reply from Virgin east Coast which advises that they are only refunding me for the one half of my journey (see the bits I have underlined and highlighted in the extract from their letter).

I bought split tickets from Darlington to Peterborough for (£38.50) which was about 25 minutes late getting into Peterborough and from Peterborough to London (£49.50) which was according to them 48 minutes late (though in reality I'm sure it was only 40 minutes for the whole Darlington to London journey rather than the random 48 minutes they have picked out for the Peterborough to London leg)

So to my mind I should receive delay repay compensation for 50% of each leg of the journey as the overall journey was in excess of 30 minutes (ie £19.25 for the Darlington to Peterborough leg and £24.75 for the Peterborough to London leg). this is using the argument presented by "Fortheloveof" ie So it's about the journey in total, not the individual ticket. Since NRCoT gives you the right to make a journey using multiple tickets, your journey is from Darlington to London and your delay compensation must, accordingly, calculated on the basis of the whole cost of your journey, not just the second ticket's value.

Instead they have offered me £19.25 for the first leg of the journey that wasn't even delayed by 30 minutes which seems rather bizarre. Any thoughts gratefully received before I go back to them

Thank you

Letter details:

Thank you for your correspondence.

We wish it wasn’t true, but sometimes trains are delayed. Things like technical issues and bad weather can make you late. Meetings get missed. Dinners go cold. It’s not nice and we are sorry for any inconvenience caused.

Your tickets are 2 separate single tickets.

Commitment to you

Our Passenger’s Charter sets out our commitment to deliver a safe, reliable and high quality service, day in, day out. Our Delay Repay scheme lets you claim back some or all of the cost of your ticket if you’re delayed by 30 minutes or more. No matter what caused the delay.


Am I being compensated?

The systems that keep track of our train running records indicate a delay of 48 minutes. We are therefore pleased to inform you that a cheque to the value of £19.25 has been raised and will be following this email in the next 14 working days. We look forward to seeing you on-board with us again in the near future. I have raised the [not sure what they meant to have written here but it's just blank]

Delay Repay, the easy way

Get your compensation quick, with a tap, swipe, click*. If your train’s running over 30 minutes late, get your compensation as quickly as possible by texting DELAY to 86888**or use our online Delay Repay scheme. Just fill in your personal details, attach a photo of your tickets and submit. No paper, no postage and no hassle!

https://www.virgintrainseastcoast.com/customer-service/contact-us/refund/delay-repay/

*you will receive a link to complete your online form. Texts are changed at your standard text rates*

We kindly ask not to respond back to this notification as it could delay the compensation or a refund coming out to you. If you have not received this payment in the next the 14 working days, please don’t hesitate getting in touch with us on the above number.

Thanks again for contacting us.

Yours sincerely

 

[sdrennan]

I currently have a complaint via Transport Focus because of this very issue but with Virgin West Coast

 

[Hadders]

I currently have a complaint via Transport Focus because of this very issue but with Virgin West Coast

Transport Focus will fail to grasp the issue and simply repeat what VTWC have already told you.

 

[island]

Well, that is a better outcome than I predicted.

 

[doctor123]

Well, that is a better outcome than I predicted.

Perhaps because although I had an anytime ticket I still had a booked seat with it so was clearly intending to be on that train. Though if you follow their logic that I'm only allowed a delay repay on one leg of the journey they have still got it wrong as they are repaying me for the other leg that wasn't delayed!

 

[robbeech]

It appears that you stayed on the same train throughout so it’s not as if they can (wrongly) try to argue you could have got an earlier service anyway.

They are incorrect with their calculations. They are even incorrect with how they think they’re doing it as you’ve rightly pointed out.
This appears to be getting more and more common both on the EC and WC, so it’s important if you have the time that you go back to them and try to get the correct amount of compensation. You could try calling them but it can be hit and miss, some of the team are really switched on whereas others are still learning.

 

[doctor123]

It appears that you stayed on the same train throughout so it’s not as if they can (wrongly) try to argue you could have got an earlier service anyway.

They are incorrect with their calculations. They are even incorrect with how they think they’re doing it as you’ve rightly pointed out.
This appears to be getting more and more common both on the EC and WC, so it’s important if you have the time that you go back to them and try to get the correct amount of compensation. You could try calling them but it can be hit and miss, some of the team are really switched on whereas others are still learning.

Thanks - I've emailed them the following

"Dear Sirs

I understand that TOCs such as yourselves are advised to pay out on split tickets as this was clearly just one journey so it’s about the journey in total not the individual ticket.

Since the NRCoT gives me the right to make a journey using multiple tickets my journey was from Darlington to London and the delay compensation should accordingly be calculated on the basis of the whole cost of the journey not just the second ticket’s value. ie £19.25 for the Darlington to Peterborough leg and £24.75 for the Peterborough to London leg

Many thanks"

 

[robbeech]

Seems fair. Do keep us up to date on the response.

 

[AlterEgo]

I’ll point out that “journey” is undefined in the NRCoC and you’re unlikely to have anything to point to in order to make your case totally concrete.

The common definition of what a journey actually is, is completely subjective and relies on analysing the circumstances.

 

[robbeech]

I would argue that given the lack of definition and clarity of what a ‘journey’ is in this case should mean that it is up to the one making the ‘journey’ to decide providing their actions are following the correct rules and procedures that are defined.
Of course, in the real world this may not work this way.

 

[tiptoptaff]

I think a journey is fairly clear cut. It is start to end. Origin to Destination. Splits in between are simply legs of a journey. Shame that some TOCs don't see it that way.

 

[najaB]

I think a journey is fairly clear cut. It is start to end. Origin to Destination. Splits in between are simply legs of a journey. Shame that some TOCs don't see it that way.

I've noticed that some people see it that way when it suits them to, and treat them as completely independent at other times.

 

[AlterEgo]

I think a journey is fairly clear cut. It is start to end. Origin to Destination. Splits in between are simply legs of a journey. Shame that some TOCs don't see it that way.

It is not in the least bit clear cut.

We are told that “you may use more than one ticket to make a journey”, but this doesn’t mean that everything involving two tickets is a single journey. For example:

1) I have a single from Milton Keynes to Clapham Junction, and I travel via London. I travel from Milton Keynes to London at 9am, and meet a friend for the day, before heading to Clapham at 6pm to go to a gig. How many journeys have I made on one ticket there?

2) I do exactly the above but buy split tickets. I have a single to Euston from MK in the morning and use Oyster for the remaining leg to Clapham Junction in the evening. How many journeys is that?

3) I have an All Line Rover and take 37 trains to bash track over the course of a week, often on loop or triangle itineraries to return me home every night. How many journeys have I made?

I could go on.

 

[yorkie]

It is clear-cut.

Write to your MP and Transport Focus.

We'll get them to relent...

 

[najaB]

It is clear-cut.

So, entitlement to delay repay should be based on the delay to the end-to-end journey being made, rather than the delay encountered on any leg(s)?

 

[yorkie]

The passenger is entitled to make a journey from Darlington to London using two or more tickets and is entitled to claim Delay Repay for their journey.

 

[najaB]

The passenger is entitled to make a journey from Darlington to London using two or more tickets and is entitled to claim Delay Repay for their journey.

Are they entitled to make a delay repay claim if, for example, the train operating one leg is delayed but they arrive at their destination less than 30 minutes later than expected by taking an alternate service?

 

[AlterEgo]

The passenger is entitled to make a journey from Darlington to London using two or more tickets and is entitled to claim Delay Repay for their journey.

With respect, that doesn’t define what a journey is. All we know is that whatever a journey it is, it can be made using more than one ticket.

 

[yorkie]

The customer came here for advice regarding their journey from Darlington to London. Their question has been answered and I am happy to assist them with their dispute.

 

[island]

It is clear-cut.

Write to your MP and Transport Focus.

We'll get them to relent...

Your campaign has had limited results thus far. I hold little hope that your approach of repeating yourself until you convince yourself you’re right will be as influential on others.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Your campaign has had limited results thus far. I hold little hope that your approach of repeating yourself until you convince yourself you’re right will be as influential on others.

The most likely outcome in my view of a campaign is for Delay Repay's wording to be changed to refer to the ticketed journey on one ticket, a bit like the way fares anomalies posted here always get "fixed".

FWIW my personal take is that the railway shouldn't strand people just because they chose to split tickets, nor should it insist on an Advance being repurchased if missed because of a connecting split-ticketed train (note however that airlines will do both of these things). However I can equally see why Delay Repay perhaps should be paid based on delays to the journey on one ticket.

 

[island]

Agreed with all the above, except (perhaps) missed connections on split advances. The desire to get all the cost benefits of split ticketing and still retain all the entitlements of a through journey is having one’s cake and eating it.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Agreed with all the above, except (perhaps) missed connections on split advances. The desire to get all the cost benefits of split ticketing and still retain all the entitlements of a through journey is having one’s cake and eating it.

An alternative way of looking at it is that you are getting the journey at a reasonable price, avoiding the often unreasonable price of a thorough ticket. Delay Repay is based on the cost of the ticket, not on a fixed sum of compensation, so you only get a proportional amount back in the case of delays.

 

[najaB]

...nor should it insist on an Advance being repurchased if missed because of a connecting split-ticketed train...

Fortunately this isn't a common one - I can only think of a couple of posters that this has happened to.

 

[yorkie]

An alternative way of looking at it is that you are getting the journey at a reasonable price, avoiding the often unreasonable price of a thorough ticket. Delay Repay is based on the cost of the ticket, not on a fixed sum of compensation, so you only get a proportional amount back in the case of delays.

No.

It is not true that using a combination of fares for one journey is always cheaper than buying one fare. It is also not true that purchasing a cheaper fare (how would you even define that) means you get a lower proportion of the original fare back in the event of delays.

There are many reasons why a passenger may use a combination of fares (e.g. Season ticket holder extending their journey).

Passengers are entitled to Delay Repay compensation based on their journey.

 

[najaB]

Delay Repay is based on the cost of the ticket,

Exactly! If I hold a ticket from London to South Gyle and I get delayed then it's entirely reasonable for Delay Repay to be based on the price of that ticket. Where have chosen to split my journey at Waverley, it's entirely reasonable that the VTEC should pay compensation for the the entire journey if I'm late arriving to Waverley causing me to miss my train to South Gyle. What is questionably unreasonable to expect Scotrail to pay out for the entire London to South Gyle journey because their train from Waverley is delayed - they might have to pay out a couple hundred pounds on a £2.60 fare.