Delay Repay on partially used ticket

[danm14]

Recently I travelled from Liverpool James Street to London Euston, and the train to London was delayed.

My tickets were as follows - all 16-25 discounted:

LIVERPOOL STNS - EDGE HILL (Anytime Day Single) stopping short at Lime Street - as this is 5p cheaper than a ticket from James Street to Lime Street.

LIVERPOOL L ST - STAFFORD (Advance, Avanti only)

STAFFORD - LONDON EUSTON (Advance)

Avanti have accepted my Delay Repay claim, but while they have paid out for both advances, they have not paid out for the Edge Hill ticket.

While it's only a few pence and I'm not hugely concerned, am I correct in saying that they should be paying out for this ticket too, as it was all one journey, and despite it being a ticket to Edge Hill it was actually used for James Street to Lime Street, and was cheaper than the standard ticket between these stations? Or has being smart and trying to save 5p actually cost me 68p?

Note that I did actually need another ticket from James Street - my advance from Liverpool was Avanti only (no connections) and was issued from Lime Street rather than Stations - so not valid from James Street. I was also very clear in the claim as to the purpose and use of the Edge Hill ticket.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

My understanding is that by the letter of the rules you are in the right.

But realistically, it's not worth the effort to try and recover the difference. 68p is less than the cost of a copy of the Echo. Less than half a pint of beer. Less than a portion of chips.

Forget it, and move on.

 

[Hadders]

Avanti should pay out on the entire journey and I'm pretty certain their Customer Charter says this. The Edge Hill ticket probably complicates things a little though, although shouldn't invalidate the claim.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would say you are right, but it is not worth pursuing for that sum.

 

[Haywain]

I would say you are right, but it is not worth pursuing for that sum.

If the OP is willing to buy the Edge Hill ticket to save 5p, a different view might be taken.

 

[Wolfie]

If the OP is willing to buy the Edge Hill ticket to save 5p, a different view might be taken.

Buying a different ticket involves no more effort. Pursuing this though.....

 

[danm14]

I'm not concerned about the 68p - my concern was more general. I was concerned that if Avanti were in the right not to pay out, in future if I used a ticket to start/finish short I may be inadvertently opting out of a much more significant amount of Delay Repay and may have to consider whether the guaranteed saving outweighed the potential loss in the event of a delay. For example on a £200 journey if I saved £20 by using a ticket short mid-way, but by doing so ended up being only eligible for Delay Repay on the last ticket which cost £5, that would be a disaster.

As regards the 5p saving - when I know there's a cheaper ticket valid for my journey, I'll buy it - especially one like this case where there's exactly zero chance of a validity dispute or difficulty buying it.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

It's perhaps worth adding that should you need to replicate this exact journey in future, it would probably make sense to walk the James Street to Lime Street leg rather than using Merseyrail. Google reckons it is a 14 minute walk and I wouldn't disagree, and it's quite straightforward:

From the front of James Street station turn left (uphill) along James Street. Keep straight on across Derby Square into Lord Street. Keep straight on into Church Street. When you pass Primark bear left into Parker Street. Keep straight on up the stairs or ramp into Elliot Street. At this point you should be able to see Lime Street station, but formally, continue forward along Elliot Street, cross Lime Street and enter the station.

Or basically, head straight into town from James Street, bear left at Primark and up the stairs to Lime Street.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not concerned about the 68p - my concern was more general. I was concerned that if Avanti were in the right not to pay out, in future if I used a ticket to start/finish short I may be inadvertently opting out of a much more significant amount of Delay Repay and may have to consider whether the guaranteed saving outweighed the potential loss in the event of a delay. For example on a £200 journey if I saved £20 by using a ticket short mid-way, but by doing so ended up being only eligible for Delay Repay on the last ticket which cost £5, that would be a disaster.

It's certainly more likely that you will confuse them with overlapping tickets and have to get to multiple levels of appeal to get a correct payout.

If you enjoy consumer rights and the process of pushing for them to be upheld, by all means go for it. If like most people you find that all a bit of hassle, and the route concerned often results in severe delay, maybe better not. Sometimes it is worth paying a little more for less stress.

 

[gray1404]

There is a side of me that wants the OP to make a point of appealing this. I have been in a similar situation that AWC have refused to pay out on a London Euston to Formby journey where I split the tickets at Liverpool. So I do wonder if, depending on who processes your claim, there is a mindset of only paying out on the AWC part of your journey. Likewise, I had a delay arriving into Lime Street of around 20 minutes but this resulted in arriving at my final destination, Formby, 30 minutes late. AWC would only pay out on a 15 minute delay at first until I appealed and they tried to fob be off with the "delay to the AWC leg of your journey was only....." line.

 

[robbeech]

I too would be interested to know their thought process. They can come to the same conclusion by several different processes, some of which are credible, others are downright unlawful, if it’s the latter then they’re not paying out on claims they should be. And they (like many operators) have form for this behaviour already.

Of course, appealing it will not fix the problem if it is the latter, even if they pay out because a payout in that scenario (which I’m not suggesting it) is just paying up to shut you up.

 

[AlterEgo]

How would you calculate the value of the partially used ticket?

 

[robbeech]

How would you calculate the value of the partially used ticket?

This is the question I had. I’m not really sure how they can given the demand based pricing as in this instance if they paid out the equivalent of a ticket between the stations travelled they’d actually be giving out MORE than the relevant value of the ticket held which is unfair.

A few years ago i claimed (by customer service contact not delay repay) for a part journey I made between Aberdeen and London. I’d planned to stay in York overnight (getting the Leeds service) but disruption and a fault meant it didn’t go beyond edinburgh. Not in service at least.
I stayed in Edinburgh and contacted and got half a Aberdeen to York SVR in RTV without much hassle. More than I expected.
Of course it was all done entirely manually by people.

 

[Skie]

There is a side of me that wants the OP to make a point of appealing this. I have been in a similar situation that AWC have refused to pay out on a London Euston to Formby journey where I split the tickets at Liverpool. So I do wonder if, depending on who processes your claim, there is a mindset of only paying out on the AWC part of your journey. Likewise, I had a delay arriving into Lime Street of around 20 minutes but this resulted in arriving at my final destination, Formby, 30 minutes late. AWC would only pay out on a 15 minute delay at first until I appealed and they tried to fob be off with the "delay to the AWC leg of your journey was only....." line.

They’ve not changed much from their Virgin days then. Usually trying to weasel out of paying for a delay when it wasn’t a single through ticket, especially when holding a season ticket for the Merseyrail leg.

Though I did eventually figure out a relatively regular way to get them to pay for delays that then meant I missed a Merseyrail service, they’d still sometimes reject it and not pay out until I bothered them some more.

 

[js517]

Perhaps a subject for a different thread, but should delay repay be payable in cases of stopping short?
I make no comment about what is technically allowed or how it should be calculated.

Given that delay repay is payable against the journey you intended to make, how do you prove that you intended to make a journey different to the one you bought tickets for? Would the tickets not be evidence to the contrary?

If this is permitted, someone armed with sufficient data could probably buy a reasonably long distance ticket and then alter their journey whilst in progress in order to maximize a delay repay payout.

I suspect if enough people fight claims in this scenario the rules might get 'clarified' and it won't be in the passenger's favour.

 

[robbeech]

Perhaps a subject for a different thread, but should delay repay be payable in cases of stopping short?
I make no comment about what is technically allowed or how it should be calculated.

Given that delay repay is payable against the journey you intended to make, how do you prove that you intended to make a journey different to the one you bought tickets for? Would the tickets not be evidence to the contrary?

If this is permitted, someone armed with sufficient data could probably buy a reasonably long distance ticket and then alter their journey whilst in progress in order to maximize a delay repay payout.

I suspect if enough people fight claims in this scenario the rules might get 'clarified' and it won't be in the passenger's favour.

When I have done this (as in the example I gave above) I did not go through the normal delay repay channels, I contacted customer services and explained that my ticket was for one thing but my plan was the stop short and stay overnight and utilise the remaining part of the ticket in the morning.
I don’t feel they were obliged to pay out under the delay repay scheme but at the same time they couldn’t get me to my destination. I didn’t seek to claim for the hotel cost although I’m sure many would.

I agree that if it became standard practise then fraudulent claims would rise and any changes made to mitigate this would tighten restrictions for passengers.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

They’ve not changed much from their Virgin days then. Usually trying to weasel out of paying for a delay when it wasn’t a single through ticket, especially when holding a season ticket for the Merseyrail leg.

Though I did eventually figure out a relatively regular way to get them to pay for delays that then meant I missed a Merseyrail service, they’d still sometimes reject it and not pay out until I bothered them some more.

Something about journeys starting or ending on Merseyrail - certainly starting/ending on the Northern Line is that the trains are frequent (15 minutes outside of Covid) and the timetabled interchange between Northern Line and Lime Street via Central is very generous (a quick look at NRE on my phone suggests 22 minutes - 10 minutes to get off the platform at Central and 12 minutes to walk to Lime Street. I assume the same in the other direction). The practical upshot of this is that even if your train into Lime Street is 20 minutes late, you may well make your booked connection at Central after a brisk walk. If it's a regular journey, you'll feel that you're more than 15 minutes late home - but you won't have a valid DR claim.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If this is permitted, someone armed with sufficient data could probably buy a reasonably long distance ticket and then alter their journey whilst in progress in order to maximize a delay repay payout.

There is an easier way to "maximise a delay repay payout" if not in a hurry and that is to simply wilfully board a delayed train!