Delay repay when walking across London on split tickets? Help?

[gray1404]

I recently travelled Liverpool Lime Street to Reading changing at Birmingham New Street, London Euston and London Paddington. I used 2 split tickets for this journey Liverpool to London Terminals and London Terminals to Reading ticket. I made my own way between Euston and Paddington and did not use the London Underground.

My train was delayed into Euston and this result in a total delay of an hour.

I notice that there is a "fixed link" of 23 minutes between Euston and Paddington. So if I add this to the 15 minutes interchange time at both Euston and Paddington, as I allowed at least 53 minutes between trains, does that mean delay repay is payable on the entire combination of tickets?

 

[Haywain]

My view would be that as there was a significant gap between the two tickets there is no entitlement to DR for the Paddington to Reading journey.

 

[dooton]

If your journey is valid (i.e appears in journey planners) then yes you would be eligible for Delay Repay. Most TOCs will only pay DR if it's a valid journey which it sounds like yours was. TOC's will consider the 53 mins connection as part of the journey. NB if you have advance tickets - you must have allowed at least the 53 mins to cross London. Otherwise your split does not constitute a valid journey under NRCOT.

Your delay is that at Reading (being your final destination )compared to your itinerary. That is what you will be compensated for.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

My view would be that as there was a significant gap between the two tickets there is no entitlement to DR for the Paddington to Reading journey.

Mine too. Surely the first ticket (Liverpool - London Terminals) expired at Euston (when you arrived at a London Terminal), and the second ticket (London Terminals - Reading) started at Paddington (when you left a London Terminal)? I think it's well-established that tickets to London Terminals expire when you reach your first London Terminal, rather than you reach the London Terminal of your choice. So you were making 2 separate journeys - Liverpool to Euston and Paddington to Reading.

And since the case for this being one journey is (at best) arguable, then surely walking from Euston to Paddington doesn't help you in convincing the railways that you made your best efforts to stick to your original schedule?* There isn't, AFAIK, any rule that you have to take the quickest means of travel between London stations, but in a case where you need to argue and get the railways on your side you presumably would want to show that you'd done your very best to comply with the spirit of the rules as well as the letter.

* 2.1 miles taking 44 minutes according to Google Maps.

 

[SargeNpton]

That 23 minutes between Euston and Paddington (plus the minimum interchange time at each end) should be displayed in the journey planner as by Tube/Underground. If you decided to take another mode of transport then it would be up to you to make sure that that mode could do the journey in the same time.

 

[Starmill]

I think it's well-established that tickets to London Terminals expire when you reach your first London Terminal, rather than you reach the London Terminal of your choice.

It is beyond all doubt that this is wrong.

If it were true, I can't imagine there would be many passengers on trains to London Charing Cross after they depart from London Bridge, or to London Waterloo on departure from Vauxhall.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I think it's well-established that tickets to London Terminals expire when you reach your first London Terminal, rather than you reach the London Terminal of your choice.

It is beyond all doubt that this is wrong.

If it were true, I can't imagine there would be many passengers on trains to London Charing Cross after they depart from London Bridge, or to London Waterloo on departure from Vauxhall.

Rather poor wording on my part to express the point I was trying to make, which I think is well-established. Would

I think it's well-established that tickets to London Terminals expire when your train reaches its London Terminal, rather than you reach the London Terminal of your choice.

suit better?

 

[Dibbo4025]

Rather poor wording on my part to express the point I was trying to make, which I think is well-established. Would

suit better?

Still very much not correct. For example a lot of tickets on the SWML into Waterloo are valid to London Bridge via Waterloo and Waterloo East

 

[gray1404]

So do I have a valid delay repay claim here for the entire journey?

 

[Starmill]

Rather poor wording on my part to express the point I was trying to make, which I think is well-established. Would suit better?

As suggested above I think this is still clearly not correct. For example a single from Gravesend to London Terminals is valid on a train from London Waterloo to Vauxhall.

 

[westv]

It might have been simpler if you had added on tube travel to either the Euston or Paddington end - creating a through journey.
Obviously you didn't need that as you walked though.

 

[mmh]

Rather poor wording on my part to express the point I was trying to make, which I think is well-established. Would

suit better?

It's been well established on here that delay repay applies to a journey, which can be paid for with any number of individual tickets satisfying a valid itinerary. The NRCoT states as much. That London Terminals are involved is irrelevant, there are many valid itineraries outside London which involve transfers by either a non-NR provider, foot, or however else the passenger wishes to go.

Fawkes Cat said:
I think it's well-established that tickets to London Terminals expire when your train reaches its London Terminal, rather than you reach the London Terminal of your choice.

All tickets "expire" when you reach a destination where they have no further validity. If this were a consideration for delay repay, nobody with split tickets missing a connection would be able to claim delay repay for their end to end journey, and that's simply not true.

 

[gray1404]

So is my calculation of 53 minutes between Euston and Paddington for walking correct? If so sounds like I have a valid claim.

 

[mmh]

So is my calculation of 53 minutes between Euston and Paddington for walking correct? If so sounds like I have a valid claim.

I believe so. Submit it, no need to mention that you walked, but be prepared for it to be wrongly rejected, then say that you travelled between Euston and Paddington in less than the minimum connection time.

 

[Hadders]

53 minutes is the minimum interchange time between Euston and Paddington between 00:01 and 05:29 (23 minutes plus 15 mins at Euston and 15 minutes at Paddington)

Between 07:00 and 19:00 the minimum interchange time is 40 minutes (10 minutes plus 15 mins at EUS and 15 mins at PAD) and is assumed to be by tube. It might be worth submitting a claim for the entire journey but it would not surprise me if it gets rejected, at least in the first instance.

 

[robbeech]

I'd be incredibly surprised if any operator even entertained the idea of paying out on the full journey, if at all on this one,regardless on whether people think it is valid or not. They just DO NOT tend to pay out on anything that isn't clear cut simple, and even then many are rejected for reasons unknown.

The argument would be that you must define your journey before you start it, and must have all tickets for that journey before you start it, although i'm not sure if it is documented in those words anywhere, and paying for the undergound for PAYG may be a somewhat grey area (something to consider)though it makes some form of logical sense. I'm of the opinion that passengers shouldn't have their cake and eat it.
There IS a gap in your travel as despite the point about expiring when you get to A London terminal being incorrect, there ARE rules on it, and as far as i'm aware, a ticket to London Terminals from Liverpool isn't valid to Paddington VIA Euston, although importantly it is valid to Paddington, but via Reading, and that would be a tricky one to add into the argument as that is where you were going. London Terminals to Reading isn't valid from Euston, and as such no ticket was held between Euston and Paddington for the journey you were undertaking with the itinerary you followed or chose. It's much more difficult to argue it is 1 journey when there is a gap in the ticketing in this way. It's not known as a walking interchange, like Birmingham stations, or Wigan etc, even though it doesn't take long to walk and there is a specific ticketing solution in place (the maltese cross, for all its flaws) that is there specifically for cross London travel. A Liverpool to London Zone 1-6 would achieve this, or the equivalent on the Reading side. All that said, there is no harm in putting in a claim and trying to push them for it but i'm not entirely sure what will happen.

 

[yorkie]

My view is there is no 'gap'; the tickets do meet up.

My advice in future would be to use an accredited split ticketing provider; you could simply forward the booking confirmation email to the relevant company to claim Delay Repay

There would then be no argument! In the incredibly unlikely event of an argument, in certain a split ticket retailer would back you up.

Rather poor wording on my part to express the point I was trying to make, which I think is well-established. Would

suit better?

No; it's still incorrect (as described above).

The great thing about this forum is that there are many experts who are able to advise; I do recommend taking caution when advising about rules you are unfamiliar with, as it can cause confusion. We do offer free fares workshops to anyone who is interested in learning more; if anyone is interested please do get in touch.

 

[gray1404]

Thanks. I'm of the view there is no gap in the tickets and I allowed enough time between connections in London. I'll claim accordingly and hopefully there won't be any problems.

 

[westv]

There would then be no argument! In the incredibly unlikely event of an argument, in certain a split ticket retailer would back you up.

Would a split ticket website offer the route without LU though?

 

[Mainline421]

Would a split ticket website offer the route without LU though?

No but a journey doesn't have to show on a journey planner to be valid it just has to meet the minimum connection times. The journey planner is just a way of making this easier to prove.

 

[yorkie]

Would a split ticket website offer the route without LU though?

At times when there is a walking fixed link? Yes.

 

[maniacmartin]

53 minutes is the minimum interchange time between Euston and Paddington between 00:01 and 05:29 (23 minutes plus 15 mins at Euston and 15 minutes at Paddington)

Between 07:00 and 19:00 the minimum interchange time is 40 minutes (10 minutes plus 15 mins at EUS and 15 mins at PAD) and is assumed to be by tube. It might be worth submitting a claim for the entire journey but it would not surprise me if it gets rejected, at least in the first instance.

This is my view too. The fixed link for walking is only designed for the times of day when the tube network isn't running. During normal day hours, the only fixed link available is the tube one.

 

[robbeech]

At times when there is a walking fixed link? Yes.

Is the question here about the fixed link though? The two tickets held don’t have a walking link or a tube link because they don’t have a link. That’s how the operators will likely see it at least.
I couldn’t buy a Worksop to Darnall and a Meadowhall to Doncaster ticket and claim delay repay on the whole journey from worksop to Doncaster if I walk between the two stations, but this wouldn’t stop a claim For one or both separately should it be eligible. Surely if London Terminals tickets meant to any London terminal and then included a link of some type to ANY other then there wouldn’t be split ticket journey planners offering stations to London zone 1 + 2 tickets for example.
I’m not saying i agree it should be this way but you left the public transport system where there was one available, and there wasn’t a ticket held for the bit you didn’t travel on. This looks like a gap to them.
Though, as I mentioned above, there’s nothing to stop you claiming though.

 

[hkstudent]

Is the question here about the fixed link though? The two tickets held don’t have a walking link or a tube link because they don’t have a link. That’s how the operators will likely see it at least.
I couldn’t buy a Worksop to Darnall and a Meadowhall to Doncaster ticket and claim delay repay on the whole journey from worksop to Doncaster if I walk between the two stations, but this wouldn’t stop a claim For one or both separately should it be eligible. Surely if London Terminals tickets meant to any London terminal and then included a link of some type to ANY other then there wouldn’t be split ticket journey planners offering stations to London zone 1 + 2 tickets for example.
I’m not saying i agree it should be this way but you left the public transport system where there was one available, and there wasn’t a ticket held for the bit you didn’t travel on. This looks like a gap to them.
Though, as I mentioned above, there’s nothing to stop you claiming though.

The issue, Oyster / Contactless PAYG itself is also a ticket in NRCOT's mind, so the case in London would be different from the rest.
Passengers can join up tickets for making one combined journey.

So I would agree other's saying: when within a time where the tube runs, you need a tube ticket (or oyster / contactless)
while out-of-service hours, a walking transit would be acceptable.

 

[robbeech]

It is a ticket. And I would argue that under normal circumstances you’d be expected to have all the tickets purchased in advance for your journey before you start your journey but there should be an exception for these types of walk up payg services as it’s quite clearly the most sensible way to do it. Had they travelled by tube from Euston to Paddington there’s a strong case for the journey no longer having a gap in ticketing terms.

 

[hkstudent]

It is a ticket. And I would argue that under normal circumstances you’d be expected to have all the tickets purchased in advance for your journey before you start your journey but there should be an exception for these types of walk up payg services as it’s quite clearly the most sensible way to do it. Had they travelled by tube from Euston to Paddington there’s a strong case for the journey no longer having a gap in ticketing terms.

It is not very easy for the general public to buy a pure tube journey ticket in advance.
If you disqualify Oyster / Contactless PAYG as one of the valid ticket medium, there would be some kind of outrage (at least from GLA)

 

[Belperpete]

If your journey is valid (i.e appears in journey planners) then yes you would be eligible for Delay Repay.

This is the nub of the question. If you can get a journey planner to generate a through journey with the two trains you used (albeit with a tube connection), then it is a valid journey. You are entitled to buy split tickets, rather than one through ticket. You should present the journey planner's itinerary in support of your claim.

The TOC will likely look at the time you would have arrived at Reading according to the journey planner, and the time you would have arrived at Reading if, having arrived late at Euston, you had caught the tube and the first connecting train from Paddington. However, in this case, you deliberately delayed yourself even more by walking, rather than taking the tube, and I would not expect a TOC to pay based on this further delay that you deliberately chose to incur.

 

[30907]

This is the nub of the question. If you can get a journey planner to generate a through journey with the two trains you used (albeit with a tube connection), then it is a valid journey. You are entitled to buy split tickets, rather than one through ticket. You should present the journey planner's itinerary in support of your claim.

The TOC will likely look at the time you would have arrived at Reading according to the journey planner, and the time you would have arrived at Reading if, having arrived late at Euston, you had caught the tube and the first connecting train from Paddington. However, in this case, you deliberately delayed yourself even more by walking, rather than taking the tube, and I would not expect a TOC to pay based on this further delay that you deliberately chose to incur.

But the OP says they did the journey within the 53 minutes allowed - actually it is 43min - so your comment may not be directly relevant.
IMO the full amount is eligible for repay - after all, most people (who don't walk!) will use Oyster/contactless for the tube/bus part - but this forum has frequently advised people to book split tickets including the tube to avoid any problem, so I've no idea what the outcome will be
Apologies - I had forgotten that 53 minutes is the allowance for when no tubes are running. The correct figure according to Yorkie is 43min. I have amended my post

 

[paul1609]

It is not very easy for the general public to buy a pure tube journey ticket in advance.
If you disqualify Oyster / Contactless PAYG as one of the valid ticket medium, there would be some kind of outrage (at least from GLA)

Trainsplit often offers me a London Terminals to London Zone 1-3 ticket even for a St Pancras to Euston transfer presumably for this reason.

 

[yorkie]

Is the question here about the fixed link though? The two tickets held don’t have a walking link or a tube link because they don’t have a link. ...

To clarify a misunderstanding: it is the itinerary that is covered by a fixed link; both tickets held could include the fixed link between the respective terminals, if the journey was made in accordance with the existence of a fixed link that is compatible with the ticket.

So, for example, if the transfer was to be made from 0001 onwards, you would get an itinerary on a London Terminals to Reading ticket with a journey planned from London Euston, which starts with a 'TRANSFER' to Paddington. Exactly the same would apply on a ticket from Liverpool Lime Street to London Terminals, with a journey planned to London Paddington.

But journey planners can only offer a TRANSFER fixed link at the time when it is applicable.

Details of fixed links from London Euston to London Paddington are shown below:

TRANSFER​	From 0001 until 0529​	23 minutes​
TUBE​	From 0529 until 0659​	18 minutes​
TUBE​	From 0700 until 1900​	13 minutes​
TUBE​	From 1901 until 2359​	18 minutes​