Delay repay when you didn’t use the ticket

[trainophile]

I just wondered whether it is okay to claim delay repay for an Advance ticket that you didn’t actually use.

After my original purchase I decided to travel in 1st Class instead, so would waste the Standard Class ticket. However I’m claiming against the 1st Class ticket for 32 minutes late arrival, and wondered whether to submit another claim for the Standard Class ticket (which I still have). They are not to know that I wasn’t travelling with a friend who could only afford Standard! The tickets have two separate booking refs but are both on my account.

Is this highly unethical, or just recouping a bit of my wasted money?

 

[EM2]

That would, in my opinion, be fraud. You were delayed, and have already claimed for that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can only claim Delay Repay for a journey you actually made, I'm afraid.

 

[trainophile]

Okay, thanks for your views. I wasn’t sure if it was okay as I had paid for a seat on a train that was delayed, even though I was sitting elsewhere on the same train.

I know it’s wrong if you have an open ticket and look for delayed trains to claim on, but this was a specific Advance so would have been a genuine delay.

 

[trainophile]

You can only claim Delay Repay for a journey you actually made, I'm afraid.

I was making the journey, just in a different coach and with a different ticket!

 

[robbeech]

Was the train late to your origin station?

You are eligible for a full fee free refund on tickets you do not use due to disruption.

 

[trainophile]

Yes it was 15 minutes late arriving at where I boarded, 17 minutes late departing. But pretending I decided not to travel due to that comparatively small lateness is almost as dodgy as claiming delay repay! Hmm, tempting though...

 

[robbeech]

At no point did i suggest doing this

 

[trainophile]

At no point did i suggest doing this

Of course not, you were merely speculating about possible similar situations .

 

[woody505]

Some company's pay out automatically, have bought cheap train advances for sky only too move the game so just wrote it off, so then a few months later to get an email saying they have refunded my tickets as my train was cancelled. Am I meant too send them a cheque back?

 

[Starmill]

Yes it was 15 minutes late arriving at where I boarded, 17 minutes late departing. But pretending I decided not to travel due to that comparatively small lateness is almost as dodgy as claiming delay repay! Hmm, tempting though...

It's not dodgy at all. Return the ticket to the retailer and explain that a) it's unused and that b) the train was delayed. Therefore, you would like a refund.

30.1
If the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed, or your reservation will not be honoured, and you decide not to travel, you may return the unused Ticket to the original retailer or Train Company from whom it was purchased, where you will be given a full refund with no administration fee being charged.

All this requires is that both are true. You do not have to not travel because the train was late, 30.1 doesn't establish a causal link. If you don't claim that then you definitely aren't committing fraud.

Plus, if anyone asks why you decided not to travel, you can legitimately say that you travelled using an alternative.

A further option (which I might have taken myself) would have been to eschew claiming delay repay and write to the train company explaining the situation and enclosing both tickets. Ask them what they can do for you under the circumstances. You may have received just the same as what you will get from using the Delay Repay form (I'm sure you wouldn't receive less!). They may well also have send you some nice vouchers or something like that in response. You could even indicate in your letter you'd be happy to accept vouchers.

What I don't get though is why you bought an additional ticket, rather than just upgrading the Advance to a First Advance?

Some company's pay out automatically, have bought cheap train advances for sky only too move the game so just wrote it off, so then a few months later to get an email saying they have refunded my tickets as my train was cancelled. Am I meant too send them a cheque back?

Presumably not but you could very well email them and ask! Their response would be fascinating. Northern accidentally made two bank transfers to me once in place of one. I wrote to them asking them of a mistake had been made and, if it had, would they like me to return the money. They replied acknowledging that there had been an admin error, but said I could keep the extra £4 or so, thinking of it as a goodwill gesture for my honesty!

 

[kristiang85]

You are entitled to a certain % of what you paid for for that journey. In my opinion, I don't see it as defrauding the railway at all, as overall they will still be in profit from you buying two tickets. But obviously this is not the railway's view.

(Edited for clarity)

 

[alistairlees]

You are entitled to a certain % of what you paid for for that journey. I don't see it as defrauding the railway at all, as overall they will still be in profit from you buying two tickets.

That's not correct. Delay Repay is compensation for the delay you suffered. You can't suffer it twice. Starmill is correct that you can get one ticket refunded though if you decided not to use it at all because of the delays. The other one you're getting delay repay for.

 

[yorkie]

That's not correct. Delay Repay is compensation for the delay you suffered. You can't suffer it twice. Starmill is correct that you can get one ticket refunded though if you decided not to use it at all because of the delays. The other one you're getting delay repay for.

Yes I agree with this.

@trainophile you can claim a refund on the unused ticket; the refund is available from the retailer.

Delay Repay isn't applicable for an unused ticket.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

That's not correct. Delay Repay is compensation for the delay you suffered. You can't suffer it twice. Starmill is correct that you can get one ticket refunded though if you decided not to use it at all because of the delays. The other one you're getting delay repay for.

As Starmill has pointed out, it's not even strictly speaking a refund because you abandoned your journey due to disruption. Though there is clearly an implied connection between the two, it is quite possible to have abandoned one's journey amidst disruption for reasons other than the disruption.

 

[cuccir]

As Starmill has pointed out, it's not even strictly speaking a refund because you abandoned your journey due to disruption. Though there is clearly an implied connection between the two, it is quite possible to have abandoned one's journey amidst disruption for reasons other than the disruption.

I'm confused by this post. Trainophile didn't abandon the journey due to disruption.

I agree that the wording of the NRCOT allows for a refund during times of disruption regardless of reason for abandoning the journey. However, given that there's no logical reason to only provide this facility during disruption, other than for those affected directly by the disruption, let's not beat around the bush: this is a (legitimate) taking advantage of a loophole.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I'm confused by this post. Trainophile didn't abandon the journey due to disruption.

I agree that the wording of the NRCOT allows for a refund during times of disruption regardless of reason for abandoning the journey. However, given that there's no logical reason to only provide this facility during disruption, other than for those affected directly by the disruption, let's not beat around the bush: this is a (legitimate) taking advantage of a loophole.

Indeed. I think the best way to put it is to say it's a refund given "amidst disruption".

 

[trainophile]

Makes you wonder what level of disruption would be accepted as a reason for abandoning a journey... five minutes? two minutes? If someone has decided not to travel anyway on their Advance ticket for whatever personal reason/change of plan, then it would be moot as to whether upon finding out that the train was delayed by a few minutes they would be able to get the ticket price back.

Re. an earlier post, I didn’t know you could upgrade a Standard Advance to a 1st. I bet it’s not straightforward to do that!

As for Virgin’s automatic repay, sadly this doesn’t work if you have other non-VT legs in your journey on a through ticket, which mine was. On the other hand it does avoid lengthy explanations about how late you were at your final destination, assuming they refer to the uploaded ticket as there is nowhere to give freehand details on the online form.

Finally, I had to laugh when typing the above on my phone, as when I put “the train was”, autocomplete offered “delayed” in the first box. A sad reflection of the state of things nowadays?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Makes you wonder what level of disruption would be accepted as a reason for abandoning a journey... five minutes? two minutes? If someone has decided not to travel anyway on their Advance ticket for whatever personal reason/change of plan, then it would be moot as to whether upon finding out that the train was delayed by a few minutes they would be able to get the ticket price back.

Re. an earlier post, I didn’t know you could upgrade a Standard Advance to a 1st. I bet it’s not straightforward to do that!

As for Virgin’s automatic repay, sadly this doesn’t work if you have other non-VT legs in your journey on a through ticket, which mine was. On the other hand it does avoid lengthy explanations about how late you were at your final destination, assuming they refer to the uploaded ticket as there is nowhere to give freehand details on the online form.

Finally, I had to laugh when typing the above on my phone, as when I put “the train was”, autocomplete offered “delayed” in the first box. A sad reflection of the state of things nowadays?

The term used is 'delayed'. There is no qualification to this, so I would suggest that any delay would entitle you to a fee-free refund. Not all TOCs and retailers would agree: some try to claim that you are only entitled to this when the train is delayed by long enough to claim delay compensation had you travelled. They are, of course, entirely wrong in this view!

 

[gray1404]

The term used is 'delayed'. There is no qualification to this, so I would suggest that any delay would entitle you to a fee-free refund. Not all TOCs and retailers would agree: some try to claim that you are only entitled to this when the train is delayed by long enough to claim delay compensation had you travelled. They are, of course, entirely wrong in this view!

Which TOCs and retailers take this view?

 

[gray1404]

So are we saying that if a customer is unable to use their advance ticket and is normally not allowed a refund (change of mind or plans) or say misses their train and its not the railways fault, they are entitled to a fee free refund if the train that they would have travelled on ended up being delayed or cancelled?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

So are we saying that if a customer is unable to use their advance ticket and is normally not allowed a refund (change of mind or plans) or say misses their train and its not the railways fault, they are entitled to a fee free refund if the train that they would have travelled on ended up being delayed or cancelled?

It doesn't matter why. If the train is delayed or cancelled, and the customer chooses not to travel, they are entitled to a fee-free refund. The reason why the customer doesn't travel doesn't have to be due to the disruption. I have previously obtained refunds for Advances under these circumstances - my planned train was "CAPEd" short of its planned destination. For reasons unrelated to this, I decided not to travel. I was nevertheless entitled to, and obtained, a full refund.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Which TOCs and retailers take this view?

It's not clear how much of this is a matter of policy, and how much is merely the result of individual members of staff or poor training. However the more 'common' retailers are perhaps more likely to have this kind of problem.

 

[MikeWh]

Re. an earlier post, I didn’t know you could upgrade a Standard Advance to a 1st. I bet it’s not straightforward to do that!

Well I don't remember it being complicated when I did it a few years ago. I completely changed plans and at the new time the cheapest available first class ticket was cheaper than the standard class advance I'd already paid for so it made perfect sense.

 

[trainophile]

Well I don't remember it being complicated when I did it a few years ago. I completely changed plans and at the new time the cheapest available first class ticket was cheaper than the standard class advance I'd already paid for so it made perfect sense.

Online, on the phone, or at a ticket counter? I would be interested to know as I often book a cheap trip and when the time approaches I decide I would much rather go in 1st. I have always just wasted the unwanted ticket, unless I can change it for a future journey.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Online, on the phone, or at a ticket counter? I would be interested to know as I often book a cheap trip and when the time approaches I decide I would much rather go in 1st. I have always just wasted the unwanted ticket, unless I can change it for a future journey.

It's possible to do it quite easily online for most retailers. If you have originally booked on CrossCountry's website it's also fee-free for Advances.

 

[MikeWh]

Online, on the phone, or at a ticket counter? I would be interested to know as I often book a cheap trip and when the time approaches I decide I would much rather go in 1st. I have always just wasted the unwanted ticket, unless I can change it for a future journey.

On the occasion I switched from standard to first it was on the phone because I also needed to book a new ticket for my kid and needed to co-ordinate seat reservations. I have made other changes online, though not changing class, but I'm sure the option was available.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Yes, the booking websites I have used (LNER + VT) certainly permit a change of class with ADV fares with the £10 change fee. Note of course that you cannot change the origin or destination of the ticket, however. It's pretty easy to do this.

 

[kristiang85]

That's not correct. Delay Repay is compensation for the delay you suffered. You can't suffer it twice. Starmill is correct that you can get one ticket refunded though if you decided not to use it at all because of the delays. The other one you're getting delay repay for.

Sorry I should have said that was my opinion rather than my interpretation of the rules - I have amended.

However, for example I have had automatic delay repay on Virgin Trains for delays on advance tickets. Although I travelled, they have no idea if I didn't travel on that ticket, so I would have received the refund anyway. How is this case different?

 

[krus_aragon]

However, for example I have had automatic delay repay on Virgin Trains for delays on advance tickets. Although I travelled, they have no idea if I didn't travel on that ticket, so I would have received the refund anyway. How is this case different?

Note that Delay Repay is a form of compensation, not a refund. It's a technical difference, but a refund is only applicable when you don't use the ticket, whereas with delay repay you did use it.*

*A slight generalisation, but broadly accurate.