Delay Repay: XC Refusal to Accept Split Tickets

[Belperpete]

Earlier this year, I made a journey from London to Belper via Birmingham. I bought separate London - Birmingham and Birmingham - Belper tickets (Off-Peak Returns). Both tickets were bought at the same time in the same transaction. Unfortunately, the train from Birmingham to Derby was delayed so that I missed the hourly Belper connection at Derby.

As far as I can see, I met all the conditions specified in the NCoT for a split-ticket journey. However, Cross-Country have only paid compensation based on the Birmingham - Belper ticket. I have queried this by phone, and X-C are adamant that I made two separate journeys. The reasons they gave for refusing to recognise this as a case of split ticketing are:
a) London-Birmingham and Birmingham-Derby are different operators
b) there is no through ticket for the journey

Neither of these conditions appear in section 14 of the NCoT. Is it worth me appealing this?

 

[Silverdale]

a) London-Birmingham and Birmingham-Derby are different operators

How is that relevant? Birmingham-Derby and Derby-Belper are different operators yet they have offered DR for the combo.

 

[maniacmartin]

Both of their reasons seem totally irrelevant to me.

(They are correct though that there is no through ticket from London Terminals to Derby that is valid via Birmingham)

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Earlier this year, I made a journey from London to Belper via Birmingham. I bought separate London - Birmingham and Birmingham - Belper tickets (Off-Peak Returns). Both tickets were bought at the same time in the same transaction. Unfortunately, the train from Birmingham to Derby was delayed so that I missed the hourly Belper connection at Derby.

As far as I can see, I met all the conditions specified in the NCoT for a split-ticket journey. However, Cross-Country have only paid compensation based on the Birmingham - Belper ticket. I have queried this by phone, and X-C are adamant that I made two separate journeys. The reasons they gave for refusing to recognise this as a case of split ticketing are:
a) London-Birmingham and Birmingham-Derby are different operators
b) there is no through ticket for the journey

Neither of these conditions appear in section 14 of the NCoT. Is it worth me appealing this?

For once, I find myself agreeing with Silverdale here.

This refusal to pay compensation on all tickets used is certainly nothing new - I have experienced it several times with CrossCountry. Each time I have appealed it, and each time they have initially rejected it, sometimes several times more, but they came round to paying in full each time (so far!) without needing to divert the County Court's time from cases where the defendant has a actual, legitimate defence.

Escalate the matter internally. If you then receive a "letter of deadlock", or 40 working days (approx 2 months) have passed from when you first raised the matter, you can take it to the Rail Ombudsman. The Ombudsman isn't the be-all and end-all, but there's a chance you may have success through it without having to escalate to legal proceedings.

If the Rail Ombudsman disagrees, or they agree but CrossCountry refuse to pay, then County Court is your only other option. Given the price of Off-Peak Returns from London to Birmingham and Birmingham to Belper, the amount in controversy will be at least £16.50 assuming the London to Birmingham ticket was of the cheapest available route. That's not a very large amount as Court cases go, but equally it is not so tiny that you should out of hand dismiss taking the matter to Court. You might, after all, like to add on an "administration fee" for "failing to pay compensation when it is due, with intent to avoid payment thereof" , something the train companies are in the habit of doing when the roles are reversed!

Joking aside, they are of course talking a load of nonsense and contradicting themselves. The fact that London-Birmingham and Birmingham-Derby is travelled on different operators is entirely irrelevant. Birmingham-Belper requires the use of at least two different train companies and yet they aren't disputing their liability there! It's almost as if they think you have bought two airline tickets, say one from Easyjet from London to Birmingham and one from Ryanair from Birmingham to Belper (ignoring the fact that there would never be such short flights!). They clearly have forgotten the fact that they are a member of an industry made of many companies that allegedly "work together" to form National Rail. Har har, not a very funny joke!

The fact that there is no through ticket valid for the route you took is also wholly irrelevant. There are numerous fastest (i.e. non-overtaken, and thus most popular) routes/itineraries for which this is the case. Are they suggesting that if you split your tickets, as would be necessary in such a case, that that wouldn't be able to constitute one journey? Or what about if you want to take a more circuitous route that isn't permitted by a route restriction on a ticket? Are they saying none of that would constitute a through journey? Clearly, this is an argument invented either because they realise there is no reason to refuse to pay out, or because there really are people out there who are so gullible they believe it. It amazes me even though I've seen it so many times.

Let's hope you have some more success in your further escalations internally, but I'm more than happy to provide advice if you have difficulties, bearing in mind I had a very similar sort of situation with Chiltern a few months ago, that was only sorted after I took them to Court.

 

[Silverdale]

The fact that there is no through ticket valid for the route you took is also wholly irrelevant.

Perhaps XC's argument is that there IS a through fare from Belper to London, but only valid via more direct routes. Therefore the only reason the OP would want to travel via Birmingham would be to visit somewhere en-route, for some purpose?

As it happens, while the MML has been closed at weekends, there have been very good reasons why travelling from Derby to London via Birmingham was the most obvious and convenient way.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Perhaps XC's argument is that there IS a through fare from Belper to London, but only valid via more direct routes. Therefore the only reason the OP would want to travel via Birmingham would be to visit somewhere en-route, for some purpose?

As it happens, while the MML has been closed at weekends, there have been very good reasons why travelling from Derby to London via Birmingham was the most obvious and convenient way.

Perhaps, but even if so, that is an irrelevant argument on their half. You aren't required to stick to routes that are valid on a through ticket for the combination to qualify as one journey under NRCoT 14. Any such requirement would also belie one of the main reasons that an 'ordinary' passenger might get a split ticket - namely that they want to travel via a route that's not permitted on any through fare.

 

[Haywain]

(They are correct though that there is no through ticket from London Terminals to Derby that is valid via Birmingham)

Are they? There are tickets available from Euston to Derby routed 'LNR & XC only'.

 

[Silverdale]

You aren't required to stick to routes that are valid on a through ticket for the combination to qualify as one journey under NRCoT 14.

Quite so. And it would be quite difficult for the TOC to argue that where a through fare DID exist via a particular route, travelling on that route using a combination of tickets was anything other than a single journey.

But what of the contrary case where the through fare is not valid via a particular route. Is a combination of tickets for travel via that route, always to be regarded as a single journey? How far from a through ticketed route can you get before it necessarily becomes two journeys? Stafford to Nuneaton via Leamington Spa? Leicester to Peterborough via York?

 

[yorkie]

Earlier this year, I made a journey from London to Belper via Birmingham. I bought separate London - Birmingham and Birmingham - Belper tickets (Off-Peak Returns). Both tickets were bought at the same time in the same transaction. Unfortunately, the train from Birmingham to Derby was delayed so that I missed the hourly Belper connection at Derby.

As far as I can see, I met all the conditions specified in the NCoT for a split-ticket journey. However, Cross-Country have only paid compensation based on the Birmingham - Belper ticket. I have queried this by phone, and X-C are adamant that I made two separate journeys. The reasons they gave for refusing to recognise this as a case of split ticketing are:
a) London-Birmingham and Birmingham-Derby are different operators
b) there is no through ticket for the journey

Neither of these conditions appear in section 14 of the NCoT. Is it worth me appealing this?

Yes, definitely.

Do you have a through itinerary? If so, this is excellent evidence of a contract. Forward the booking confirmation email to them and state something like "I booked a journey from London to Belper costing £xx.xx; see my contracted travel times in the email below. My journey was delayed by xx minutes due to..."

If you bought it from an accredited ticket splitting site, I'd expect the retailer would help you (I am aware of forum members who have sought such assistance and as far as I can recall every such case has been resolved) if XC continue to reject your appeal.

You can also refer the matter to the Rail Ombudsman.

 

[maniacmartin]

Are they? There are tickets available from Euston to Derby routed 'LNR & XC only'.

You have to travel via Nuneaton to Tamworth, as Birmingham isn't mapped. It surprised me too

 

[Hadders]

Official XC policy is to pay delay repay where a combination of tickets is used but only on tickets where an XC train was used.

So, as you only used an XC train on your Birmingham-Belper ticket that is all they will pay out on. They consider the London-Birmingham ticket as a separate journey.

This is of course totally incorrect, I complained about this after they didn't fully pay one of my claims and they paid up as a gesture of goodwill but I've followed up with a complaint to their Registered Office asking them to review their policy as it contradicts their Customer Charter and could also be a franchise breach. I haven't had a reply yet....

 

[yorkie]

Official XC policy is to pay delay repay where a combination of tickets is used but only on tickets where an XC train was used.

So, as you only used an XC train on your Birmingham-Belper ticket that is all they will pay out on. They consider the London-Birmingham ticket as a separate journey.

This is of course totally incorrect, I complained about this after they didn't fully pay one of my claims and they paid up as a gesture of goodwill but I've followed up with a complaint to their Registered Office asking them to review their policy as it contradicts their Customer Charter and could also be a franchise breach. I haven't had a reply yet....

Yes, this is what others have experienced too.

XC treat connecting services as a separate journey if a separate ticket was used; using multiple tickets on XC trains is still considered to be one journey.

This is of course wrong but it's what they do.

 

[Belperpete]

Thanks for the advice. I will escalate, and let you know how I get on.

while the MML has been closed at weekends, there have been very good reasons why travelling from Derby to London via Birmingham was the most obvious and convenient way.

That was exactly the reason I travelled that way: the Sunday leg of the journey was significantly quicker going via Birmingham and VTWC as MML was bustituted. And at Super-Off Peak fares, it is also significantly cheaper travelling via Birmingham than via MML. As it was both quicker and cheaper, it was as you say the obvious and convenient way.

The tickets were bought with a railcard, the London - Birmingham ticket cost £23.75 and the Birmingham - Belper ticket cost £12.30. They have paid £6.15, so I am looking for a further £11.85.

As an aside, I have just had an email from Northern saying that they are paying my split-ticket claim for a Glasgow-Leeds Leeds-Belper journey that was delayed between Carlisle and Leeds.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I am in the middle of a debate with their customer services dept about Delay Repay and split tickets. All 3 tickets for my journey involved travel on the same XC service, but they initially refused full compensation.

Various excuses were peddled around how using multiple tickets meant I was doing multiple journeys, to then saying as the train wasn't delayed till later in the journey it was only the later bit which delay repay applied to.

After quoting them chapter and verse and escalating the matter they are now saying they acknowledge you can use multiple split tickets for one journey, but it doesn't apply to delay repay as that is different and only applies to the destination printed on the final ticket and nothing else, and not the overall journey. They have offered to pay the full amount due as a gesture of goodwill on this occasion.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I am in the middle of a debate with their customer services dept about Delay Repay and split tickets. All 3 tickets for my journey involved travel on the same XC service, but they initially refused full compensation.

Various excuses were peddled around how using multiple tickets meant I was doing multiple journeys, to then saying as the train wasn't delayed till later in the journey it was only the later bit which delay repay applied to.

After quoting them chapter and verse and escalating the matter they are now saying they acknowledge you can use multiple split tickets for one journey, but it doesn't apply to delay repay as that is different and only applies to the destination printed on the final ticket and nothing else, and not the overall journey. They have offered to pay the full amount due as a gesture of goodwill on this occasion.

Very similar for me, offering it as a "gesture of goodwill". We know perfectly well Arriva don't give a hoot about "goodwill", in fact their pricing model makes clear they don't want more passengers at all on CrossCountry!

I'll take it as a "gesture of goodwill" today, tomorrow and all year long if that's what it takes for them to pay their contractual dues.

 

[LowLevel]

Just for reference I had a delay relay claim from XC paid last week involving 4 split tickets (yeah, staff really do buy tickets ) and both it and my partner's were paid without any quibble or comment first time round.

 

[robbeech]

Just for reference I had a delay relay claim from XC paid last week involving 4 split tickets (yeah, staff really do buy tickets ) and both it and my partner's were paid without any quibble or comment first time round.

Another example of inconsistencies with training. Whilst we cannot be sure, it gives the impression that your case will have been dealt with by someone with a genuine interest in ticketing who has done their own research whereas the others we see here will have been dealt with by someone who has received just the basic (incorrect, perhaps deliberately so) training who treats it as a job they do to earn money and has no real interest.

 

[Skipness]

Just for reference I had a delay relay claim from XC paid last week involving 4 split tickets (yeah, staff really do buy tickets ) and both it and my partner's were paid without any quibble or comment first time round.

I too have had a delay repay without a problem, but in my case involving seven split tickets. Total repay was over £50

 

[gray1404]

So we have a situation now at Cross Country where it can be pot luck which member of staff gets allocated your claim. If you get the right person you get your delay repay but get the wrong person and they incorrectly refuse it. Lack of consistency.

 

[Pumperkin]

Another example of inconsistencies with training. Whilst we cannot be sure, it gives the impression that your case will have been dealt with by someone with a genuine interest in ticketing who has done their own research whereas the others we see here will have been dealt with by someone who has received just the basic (incorrect, perhaps deliberately so) training who treats it as a job they do to earn money and has no real interest.

Or, to turn this on its head somewhat, a case where DR is paid only on XC services could be dealt by someone who wants to save their company £ and cares about their company, whereas a case where DR is paid on all without quibble is dealt with by someone who just turns up for the pay and doesn't really care either way.

 

[LowLevel]

Or, to turn this on its head somewhat, a case where DR is paid only on XC services could be dealt by someone who wants to save their company £ and cares about their company, whereas a case where DR is paid on all without quibble is dealt with by someone who just turns up for the pay and doesn't really care either way.

A person who treats company funds like their own personal savings to the detriment of the company's own policies is a liability, I'm afraid. Poor customer service through incorrect application of procedure is very damaging especially as a delay repay claim is the result of a negative interaction with the company in the first place.

When things go wrong it's how you manage them that counts and trying to squeeze people out of delay repay is not a good move.

 

[Hadders]

Or, to turn this on its head somewhat, a case where DR is paid only on XC services could be dealt by someone who wants to save their company £ and cares about their company, whereas a case where DR is paid on all without quibble is dealt with by someone who just turns up for the pay and doesn't really care either way.

If they want to earn XC’s money then they must follow XC’s rules.

Staff cannot simply go round making up their own rules.

 

[yorkie]

Or, to turn this on its head somewhat, a case where DR is paid only on XC services could be dealt by someone who wants to save their company £ and cares about their company, whereas a case where DR is paid on all without quibble is dealt with by someone who just turns up for the pay and doesn't really care either way.

Are you suggesting XC are employing staff who knowingly and fraudulently underpay Delay Repay claims? If so, and you have some inside information, I'd be very interested to hear more about this.

However I suspect it's a combination of abysmal training, poor knowledge, disinterested and poor quality staff, and general mismanagement.

 

[Pumperkin]

Are you suggesting XC are employing staff who knowingly and fraudulently underpay Delay Repay claims? If so, and you have some inside information, I'd be very interested to hear more about this.

However I suspect it's a combination of abysmal training, poor knowledge, disinterested and poor quality staff, and general mismanagement.

Hi, was just playing Devil's Advocate. Sorry to get you excited

 

[Deafdoggie]

Within the XC Customer Services department is a Delay Repay team. These I think are the ones who get it correct. That is all they do day in and day out-I know that doesn't mean they always get it right-but I think this is why many are finding it is paid correctly. However, they are a bit behind so other people (from within XC) are "helping" out, this is where the errors are occurring. I don't believe there is intent, just, should we say, a "misunderstanding" of the rules, by those whose job it isn't. That is not to say they are disinterested, just not adequately trained. In their defence, at least XC are trying to beat the delays in responding.

 

[robbeech]

Within the XC Customer Services department is a Delay Repay team. These I think are the ones who get it correct. That is all they do day in and day out-I know that doesn't mean they always get it right-but I think this is why many are finding it is paid correctly. However, they are a bit behind so other people (from within XC) are "helping" out, this is where the errors are occurring. I don't believe there is intent, just, should we say, a "misunderstanding" of the rules, by those whose job it isn't. That is not to say they are disinterested, just not adequately trained. In their defence, at least XC are trying to beat the delays in responding.

This as a concept would seem plausible.

 

[gray1404]

XC are not helping customers in the slightest in they are getting people to do a job that they are not well trained to do and they are getting it wrong. So they are behind, the solution is not to put people on it who don't know what they're doing.

 

[Belperpete]

update:
I complained, and received the response that X-Country will only pay compensation based on the total ticket cost if someone is delayed on the first portion of a split-ticket journey. If someone is delayed on the portion covered by the second ticket then they will pay compensation based on the cost of that second ticket alone. So sometimes they treat a split ticket journey as one journey, and sometimes they treat it as two separate journeys, depending on where the delay occurs. This is not the reason they initially gave for refusing full compensation!

I can see their logic, in that the initial part of my journey from Euston to Birmingham ran on time. As I was only delayed on the second part of the journey from Birmingham to Belper, why should the compensation include the cost of the separate Euston to Birmingham ticket. However, if I had bought a through Euston to Belper ticket, and was delayed on the second portion of the journey, then compensation would be paid on the full ticket cost, and the NRCoT are clear that (provided certain conditions are met) a split-ticket journey is treated the same as a one-ticket journey.

I complained again, and was again told that they had calculated it correctly "in line with the National Rail Conditions of Travel and our Passenger Charter the compensation is based on the delay into the station printed on the ticket. As there was no delay on the other ticket." However, they have "on this occasion" agreed to pay the extra "as a gesture of goodwill".

 

[LowLevel]

What a load of rubbish. The one they paid in full the other week for me was leg 3.

 

[Hadders]

I had a 5 way split paid out by XC just this week.