Delayed due to "passengers causing a disturbance"?

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by Comstock, 23 Jan 2020.

  1. 43066

    43066 Member

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    You might be surprised. I have no figures to quote from but, anecdotally, a heck lot of Passcom activations (especially during rush hour) are due to someone collapsing. Usually it’s because they’ve fainted, but on rare occasions, it’s due to heart attack etc.

    This time of year can be particularly bad for it with people wearing thick winter coats and rushing to board overheated, crowded trains.
     
  2. Surreytraveller

    Surreytraveller Established Member

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    It is the railway's policy. Staff generally refuse to adhere to it.
     
  3. Eccles1983

    Eccles1983 On Moderation

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    I have worked for two TOC's

    It is not policy for either of them. It is not in the rule book, So where is this policy written down?

    I'm not leaving someone at an unmanned station (The vast majority) so Mr and Mrs Self important can avoid a delay. I've held loads of trains for ill/injured people. Not once has this apparent policy been quoted at me. I've even kept a train at a station because of an ill passenger who hadn't even stepped foot on the train.
     
  4. Tom Quinne

    Tom Quinne Established Member

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    We’re forgetting your not dealing with someone like you or I, your dealing with a segment of society who take, take, take and give not a single fig about anyone or anything else.

    Their quite willing to say all the well practised buzz words to ensure their taken to hospital, thus out of the station and free of paying the fare. Once their at hospital they’ll self discharge and away they go.
     
  5. bb21

    bb21 Forum Staff Staff Member Global Moderator

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    I don't know which control you are referring to but generally control don't write such documents.

    These policies AFAIK are normally developed by operators with some input from medical professionals.

    But as you say policies can only cater for situations "in principle". What happens on the ground varies depending on the exact circumstances.
     
  6. Mogz

    Mogz Member

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    I believe the legal term is “causing a hullabaloo”.
     
  7. Horizon22

    Horizon22 Member

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    And not eating any breakfast being quite a key one as their blood sugar level is so low when stepping from hot to cold or vice versa
     
  8. Scott1

    Scott1 Member

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    I can see the appeal of getting someone off the train from the ill passengers point of view. Trains can be hot, crowded and offer no privacy. A platform may well be a much nicer place to be if your able to be assisted off the train. At bigger stations there are usually better facilities too.
     
  9. LAX54

    LAX54 Established Member

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    The view from the Signalling side, is that in 90% of cases, if not more, the train will wait for the Ambulance / Paramedics to arrive, once in a while the train will move on to the next station if that is quicker for the response to get to.
     
  10. Surreytraveller

    Surreytraveller Established Member

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    Ideally, the train should be moved to a location where other trains can get past. Quite often, such locations are quicker for ambulances to reach, and are also nearer to a hospital. And have staff.
    Its when trains sit at a station in the middle of nowhere with carnage building up behind them that it causes major issues.
     
    Last edited: 26 Jan 2020
  11. IanXC

    IanXC Emeritus Moderator

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    Two key issues:

    There are a significant number of instances where ill passengers are moved onto station platforms, and the traincrew continue to stay with the person despite the presence of station staff.

    There are a significant number of instances where trains are held at locations where response times will be much, much longer than proceeding to the next station.
     
  12. Busaholic

    Busaholic Established Member

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    Last train of the evening from Plymouth to Penzance, two car job, quite well loaded. We get to St German's, with one fairly dim light midway along the unstaffed station platform. What happened next I can't be certain of, because it occurred in the other carriage of the train, and there were no announcements at any stage. All we knew in our carriage was that the 'guard' went racing from the back through our carriage after we'd been stopped for about ten minutes, then after about another fifteen minutes we were aware of an emergency ambulance pulling up. At some stage the doors on our carriage were opened, and I did stand at them to see two paramedics dealing with a casualty on the platform. After about 75 minutes in total we departed, leaving the two paramedics still on the platform but, with blankets completely covering the scene on the platform and no sign of urgency, it was clear there'd been a fatality. The tight-lipped guard, returning to his eyrie, would only volunteer that a lone, male passenger, waiting on the platform, had been struck on the head by the outward opening doors. The train passengers, already subdued, remained that way for the rest of their respective journeys. On arrival at Truro we were informed that the late shift signalman had gone home and the train was terminating. The station was also bereft of any staff and no taxi provision had been made for people like me bound for Penzance

    Twenty odd years ago, and iirc the train was run by Arriva West and Wales.
     
  13. Monty

    Monty Established Member

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    Many moons ago, I was working a 458/5 on a Windsor ER service and as we were approaching the final stop Windsor a young woman approached me and said she was about to have a seizure. I have to confess I was like a rabbit caught in a headlights for about 10 seconds before asking what she needed me to do. We found a large enough area in the vestibule for her to lay down so to minimise any potential injuries, the poor girl had two minute long seizures in very quick succession while I was on the phone to the emergency services. I've seen quite a bit in my 13 plus years on the railway but someone having a seizure ranks at being one of the scariest things I've witnessed.

    An ambulance was promptly dispatched and the great thing about Windsor is that the castle has its own dedicated fireman who drives around in a modified Land rover and he had heard the call and made is way from the castle to see if he could help, an absolute top man and he got there before the ambulance did. My driver that day was also a star (a womble driver ircc) and was very supportive, especially when I started to get all kinds of trouble with the WICC.

    Now bare in mind I had already informed the WICC about the situation and all they were interested in was getting the poor girl off the train (they even had the cheek to ask ME to move her on the platform) so the return working could leave right time. I informed them this wasn't going to happen and she wasn't going to be moved before the paramedics got here and did it themselves. In the end I think they tried to call me 4-5 times to get me to hurry things along, eventually I had to curtly tell them to "get lost* and I would call back when I was ready to."

    We had to cancel the return working in the end as the paramedics wanted to do their observations on the train before moving her to the ambulance. I hate to think what I would of been liable for if I had naively followed the instructions of the WICC and she had another seizure on platform and bashed her head on the tarmac. I get it they don't want me to hold up the service but at Windsor you have two platforms and at that time of the year only one is in constant use so they could of easily worked around me without having a knock on effect to other trains.

    Anyway the young lady was okay in the end (though she had absolutely no recollection of seeking me out and asking for my help) and best part was my line manager who had been with me that morning to conduct and assessment said how he had received a complaint from the WICC about my conduct which had been duly filed into his recycle bin! Needless to say I got some excellent feedback for that assessment! :lol:

    *obscenities may have been used..
     
  14. theironroad

    theironroad Established Member

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    Sounds like you did everything right, as the consequences of leaving her seizing on an unattended platform are far too risky.

    I rarely call the WICC about anything as experience has shown that it's usually a pointless exercise. Anything important enough I'll inform the signaller and they can notify control if they wish.

    However, just as there is no excuse for passengers to swear at staff, there is certainly no excuse for staff to swear at or in conversation with other staff, however annoying and frustrating the conversation is going.
     
  15. Mojo

    Mojo Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

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    There is no medical reason not to move someone, unless they have a spinal injury (this is extremely unlikely on a train), or are in the active stage of a seizure. In most cases it is actually better to move the person to a good location on the platform, this could be to provide fresh air in the case of a faint, or to provide for 360 degree access for medical responders for cases such as cardiac arrest where you cannot do good quality CPR on board a train.

    In the London area, since April 2013, it has been standard practice to work like this: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/154195/response/383204/attach/4/A E Operations 18March2013.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

    Obviously this depends on a number of factors; for instance something like this is only really possible on staffed stations!

    In my experience, so called medical professionals are the worse, as with the exception of those who deal with trauma on a regular basis, most training for things like first aid, will tell people not to move an injured party!

    There is no need for anyone to make a decision, other than the railway staff who are managing that incident. That decision would be to look whether there is an active seizure in progress, ask the person if they have any pain, and then work out a plan to move that person.
     
  16. GoneSouth

    GoneSouth Member

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    Just to bring this back on topic, the “passengers causing a disturbance” reason for a delay was heavily in use this evening around Somerset and Bristol. Looks like a service from Taunton to Cardiff was delayed by an hour which I guess caused other services to be delayed.

    I’d never heard the reason used until today, is it a new thing or just being used more often?

    Incidentally, anybody know what the incident was this afternoon?
     
  17. 221129

    221129 Established Member

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    A train was awaiting police attention at Highbridge and Burnham. The pre programmed delay reason has been used for a good few years.
     

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