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Delays affecting South West Trains (Friday 25 July)

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cjohnson

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Today's problems: Signalling issues blocking 1-4 at Waterloo this morning which reappeared around lunchtime. Now a lightning strike somewhere between Surbiton/Woking has knocked out the signalling so nothing going further than Surbiton.
 
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infobleep

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I got into Surbiton only 2 minutes late this rowing which is normal so it didn't seem to be affecting trains around 8.25 or a least not the one I was on.
 

infobleep

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Looks like National Rail Enquiries cannot cope with the signaling problems. Lots of trains showing delayed or on time. Apparently the delays are only up to 60 minutes. That explains why the 14.11 from Surbiton to Waterloo is shown as being on time and hasn't even turned up yet. Perhaps railway minutes are longer than normal minutes.
 

hassaanhc

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This morning, Platform 1-4 and Platform 7-11 groups at Waterloo had issues, the P1-4 returned in the afternoon. Then lightning damaged signalling between Surbiton and Woking in that direction only.
 

ushawk

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With Code Black disruption being declared, can you really expect NRE to be 100% accurate in situations like this ? I guess you havent learnt from the past posts you have made about NRE in disruption then which is to simply not bother with it and follow station/staff advice or check what TOCs are putting on Twitter.

Total loss of signalling at Surbiton on the DOWN lines and a total loss of signalling on FGW lines at Twyford - both due to lightning strikes. SWT advising against travel via Surbiton at this time.
 

swt_passenger

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Why do people keep extending this thread, which was originally about the 10th of July?

I guess eventually people might realise that a signalling lightning strike on the SWML, or a PHBT somewhere on the SWML will always have repercussions for about 6-8 hours - so do we really need to discuss this every week?
 
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infobleep

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With Code Black disruption being declared, can you really expect NRE to be 100% accurate in situations like this ? I guess you havent learnt from the past posts you have made about NRE in disruption then which is to simply not bother with it and follow station/staff advice or check what TOCs are putting on Twitter.

Total loss of signalling at Surbiton on the DOWN lines and a total loss of signalling on FGW lines at Twyford - both due to lightning strikes. SWT advising against travel via Surbiton at this time.
I except system that can handle these issues. We live in a modern society. The signalman knows where the trains are so why not NRE? I'm not saying the things are simple. I'll happily praise the systems when they work and point out failings when they don't.

I'm currently doing a lot of data cleansing at work and I'm constantly making remarks about some old systems we are using but are about to be replaced.

Using old systems isn't just a NRE problem. It's a problem with many companies. Just because something has existed for years doesn't mean it should stay around for ever more.

I keep mentioning NRE because I think it is useful to highlight the issues. If they get ignored, no one will ever improve the system.

Turns out they sent one of the trains down from Oxshott to Effingham Junction and then to London via Epsom. I'm sure the signalman and passengers knew this, even if people checking online didn't.

Interestingly they are advising people get buses to Hampton Court. Last week during one evenings disruption they were laying on buses, which at the time surprised me, this being central London. Buses make more sense I think.
 

infobleep

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Look like with signalling equipment down they cannot update information screens. I don't know if switching off the screens would help or make matters worse? Clearly they can't implement only showing the trains that are running as the lightening strike took out the signals.
 

Bald Rick

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I except system that can handle these issues. We live in a modern society. The signalman knows where the trains are so why not NRE?

Not necessarily. In this case the lightning caused the signaller to lose all points and track circuit indications, and crucially the train describer also went down. This means that he (or she) didn't necessarily know where all the trains were, and would have had to wait for all the drivers to call in before working that out. And as NRE ultimately works off the train describers, it would have been blind.
 

infobleep

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Not necessarily. In this case the lightning caused the signaller to lose all points and track circuit indications, and crucially the train describer also went down. This means that he (or she) didn't necessarily know where all the trains were, and would have had to wait for all the drivers to call in before working that out. And as NRE ultimately works off the train describers, it would have been blind.
Your absolutely right. I did them a disservice. I guess I'm so use to problems not caused by things like this I jump to conclusions. It's the same at work now and again. Old system, poor data so blame that when it's sometimes something else.

Interestingly a train was at Raynes Park for 5 minute but because it was unscheduled they were not allowed to open the doors so people could get on as the train might leave at any time. Back in the slam door days they couldn't stop people joining or alighting. I'm not saying it was safer back then, just a fact of life.

Looks like the train describers are still down but the signals must be working.

I wouldn't mind being a fly on the wall when events like today happen. I take it they would have a list of last known positions so they know which drivers to contact.
 

Monty

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I except system that can handle these issues. We live in a modern society. The signalman knows where the trains are so why not NRE? I'm not saying the things are simple. I'll happily praise the systems when they work and point out failings when they don't.

I had a message come through the company mobile asking guards in the Surbiton area to get their drivers to contact the signaller and identify their train and confirm their exact location. So as others have said it looks like the failure was pretty serious and they were unable to confirm the location of the trains.
 
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Domh245

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What would have been done in this situation? Would the signaller have had to interpose the headcodes manually after receiving information from the drivers, or would they have resorted to sticky notes? I am assuming that the Track Circuits would still be showing if they were occupied, or did the lightning strike destroy some equipment meaning all the equipment went blank?
 

infobleep

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I had a message come through the company mobile asking guards in the Surbiton area to get their drivers to contact the signaller and identify their train and confirm their exact location. So as others have said it looks like the failure was pretty serious and they were unable to confirm the location of the trains.
Surprised you had much phone signal. I find it patchy with O2.

At Surbiton this evening, North bound trains were clearing from the board after they left but I'm not sure about south bound ones, as that was showing earlier services. South West Trains did a have an automated announcement at one point saying only trains running were being listed. That is a good system.

Trains were arriving almost together so they had to use the fast line platform, 2, twice. That is used for the 9.11 but not many services use it and during peak rush hour if a train was late, the train behind would just have to wait for platform 1 to become free. No space on the fast line to stop trains.

Now on a late running 19.53 towards Ore from Clapham Junction. Interestingly it was still on time when the 19.38 to Southampton turned up at 19.54. This one eventually left at 8pm. It is also seems unusually full. Perhaps this service is regularly standing due to shortage of rolling stock or perhaps it's unusually short formed.

If it was South West Trains I could look this up on their Web Site. No such possibility from Southern. However Southern do offer other benefits so it's not all bad.
 

SpacePhoenix

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What would have been done in this situation? Would the signaller have had to interpose the headcodes manually after receiving information from the drivers, or would they have resorted to sticky notes? I am assuming that the Track Circuits would still be showing if they were occupied, or did the lightning strike destroy some equipment meaning all the equipment went blank?

Another post further up says they lost track circuit indications.

If the signalling goes down, do all drivers have to assume every signal is red and contact the signaller each time they come to a signal for permission to pass it with caution?
 

carriageline

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Equipment wouldn't go blank. It would fail safe at both Endex so all the TCs would be showing occupied, with all the points flashing out of correspondance (unless of course the signals were knackered then they would go blank).

No they don't ring to pass them (unless you again mean the signals are blank due to the fault, then yes they would) if the controls work fine, the signaller generally signals trains as normal, but first has to identity that it is an indication fault (but in this case, you won't be signalling much if the signals are dead with no point indications!).

One thing I don't know is how they would signal trains if they have no indications of signals etc on the panel, I wonder if the route lights would be affected! It's relatively easy in a small area, but a whole panel isn't great


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455driver

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What would have been done in this situation? Would the signaller have had to interpose the headcodes manually after receiving information from the drivers, or would they have resorted to sticky notes? I am assuming that the Track Circuits would still be showing if they were occupied, or did the lightning strike destroy some equipment meaning all the equipment went blank?

Wrong!
Putting that sort of voltage through signalling equipment leads to a lot of white smoke being emitted and circuit boards going a nice shade of black.
I saw one on Guildford platform after the box at the other end had been hit by lightening and there was a lot of black bits in there with everything having to be replaced which does take quite a while to do do even if the spares are instantly to hand.

The signalbox displays went berserk, the siggies would have had to talk all the trains in order past each signal (once the points were confirmed to be set and locked) until they got to working section, this takes bloomin ages as the signallers had 4 lines of trains to deal with and they can only realistically deal with one line at a time.

They would have earned their wages on this one! ;)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Another post further up says they lost track circuit indications.

If the signalling goes down, do all drivers have to assume every signal is red and contact the signaller each time they come to a signal for permission to pass it with caution?

Every signal would have been red, if power is lost then they have a backup which keeps them red for quite a while.

If a signal is blank (or black as it is known) then it has to be assumed to be at its most restrictive aspect.
 
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30909

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I know it’s just me over simplifying this topic and I accept that it must have been extremely difficult for all grades of operators and we public somewhat unsympathetic but do I spot a trend or weakness?
This is certainly not the first time in the last three years that lightning strikes have put the SW Main Line signalling out in the area between Clapham Junction and Woking. It begs the question what is it about the signalling, track, power supply, general electrical and mechanical engineering that makes this area appear to be so vulnerable to lightning?
 

Monty

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I know it’s just me over simplifying this topic and I accept that it must have been extremely difficult for all grades of operators and we public somewhat unsympathetic but do I spot a trend or weakness?
This is certainly not the first time in the last three years that lightning strikes have put the SW Main Line signalling out in the area between Clapham Junction and Woking. It begs the question what is it about the signalling, track, power supply, general electrical and mechanical engineering that makes this area appear to be so vulnerable to lightning?

It's not just the SW Division though, the Line out of Paddington was out of action today for the same reason. I also suspect it happens quite often on some of the more rural lines in the country too, but the nature of the SWML means it gets a lot of coverage in the press.
 

Yabbadabba

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Equipment wouldn't go blank. It would fail safe at both Endex so all the TCs would be showing occupied, with all the points flashing out of correspondance (unless of course the signals were knackered then they would go blank).

No they don't ring to pass them (unless you again mean the signals are blank due to the fault, then yes they would) if the controls work fine, the signaller generally signals trains as normal, but first has to identity that it is an indication fault (but in this case, you won't be signalling much if the signals are dead with no point indications!).

One thing I don't know is how they would signal trains if they have no indications of signals etc on the panel, I wonder if the route lights would be affected! It's relatively easy in a small area, but a whole panel isn't great


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I've got some pictures from work where we had a power spike from the national grid and backup UPS failed and left the whole signalling panel total dead and blank. Luckily this was just after 04:00 in the morning with no trains running, then I've got another picture at about 05:30 when the power was restored but the signalling computer that runs the panel said "NO" and all track circuits were showing occupied and all points were showing out of correspondence. Service did not resume until after 06:30 when the computer was successfully re-booted by the technicians.

Whether you move trains or not when there is a total loss of signalling indications will depend on if it's just plain line or if it involves points, crossovers and level crossings or not. Temporary block working could be introduced if none of the latter above were to apply, but once your working blind with no point indications, well that's basically the end of the game until the technicians fix the fault or a mass of support staff start clipping up points to be left in one direction only for Temporary block working to start. Which will need at least two persons outside per line (one at the start of the broken section of signalling and one at the end of the effected section) working under the signallers instructions and you can forget any trains working to or from any diverging routes as all points would be set for straight running and left that way.

With a total loss of signalling even if the Train Describer is working and not effected you can't use it as the train IDs want step from berth to berth as it's the track circuits that drive the stepping of the IDs.

The best you can do with a total loss of signalling is wait for the drivers to start calling in and get the number of the signal they are standing at and start using good ol note paper and pen and starting recording their locations down ready for when things get fixed enough that you start moving trains again.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Every signal would have been red, if power is lost then they have a backup which keeps them red for quite a while.

If a signal is blank (or black as it is known) then it has to be assumed to be at its most restrictive aspect.

I think that depends on the age and type of signalling installation. On the night England played Uruguay in the World Cup the London Electric board managed to blow up a feeder cable of something in the New Addington area which took out the power supply to South Croydon relay room towards the end of the evening peak. The signalling is RRI fed via a TDM, so when the power went all tracks went red all points went out of correspondence and the TDM was showing it was just TDM indication failure only, not nice as you've now lost all of visual reference to where all your trains are but as it's indication everything trackside is still working as far as the train drivers are concerned and we have a back basic system we can use once we know that all current trains are clear of the effected section and all other trains are stopped from entering the section until the backup system is switched in.

Then it started happening driver after driver started calling in reporting blank signals, a quick recheck of the TDM revealed that the remote had also failed so now there is NO power to any of the trackside equipment ie signals and points. Well that's it nothing now moves as you have now no way of knowing the position of the points or if they are still locked no aspects in any signals and on top of that the TDM control circuit fails as well, so indications, no control signalling equipment and no power to it, it don't get much worse than that :(
 

455driver

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Thanks for the info "Yabbadabba", I have only ever had to pass one black signal (with permission) and it felt very wrong indeed, I wont mention passing the red before it and proceeding onto the single line (again with permission). :shock:
 

Jonny

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This is certainly not the first time in the last three years that lightning strikes have put the SW Main Line signalling out in the area between Clapham Junction and Woking. It begs the question what is it about the signalling, track, power supply, general electrical and mechanical engineering that makes this area appear to be so vulnerable to lightning?

Well, given the subject matter here ( http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=103810 ) as well, is there some overall vulnerability to lightning in the signalling equipment?

Would it not be possible to provide some sort of additional protection (e.g. lightning rods (as in conductor to earth) above/around the equipment) at minimal cost?
 

SpacePhoenix

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Well, given the subject matter here ( http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=103810 ) as well, is there some overall vulnerability to lightning in the signalling equipment?

Would it not be possible to provide some sort of additional protection (e.g. lightning rods (as in conductor to earth) above/around the equipment) at minimal cost?

And possibly industrial strength surge protectors?
 

infobleep

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Thanks for the replies. So would all the signals have gone red yesterday? The train describers were obviously not working by 8pm but the signals were so how would the signaller know where the trains were? In this situation could trains go from slow to fast lines? Surprisingly the 17.23 and 18.23 were on time leaving London but they run fast from Surbiton down the slow lines and last night got held up. Either they couldn't change lines or the signalman was so busy dealing with other trains, there wasn't the time to switch them and slot them into the other fast trains on the fast line.


Did they have to do some extensive overnight repairs?


Most fascinating. Turns out the Southern train I caught last night was extra full due to an earlier cancelled train. Wasn't told the until we got near Gatwick Airport. The got held up there as people tried to board. I might have got the next train if I'd known whilst at the station but that's Southern for you. Good at some things and not others.
 

455driver

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As stated above several times, if there is no detection on the points then no trains are allowed to run over them, it is as simple as that.

Once the detection of the points has been recovered then trains are allowed to run over them but if the siggy doesnt know where the trains are that is going to be a very slow process.
 

Bald Rick

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Re lightning protection. Most modern signalling now has 'industrial strength' surge arrestors.

However, and I'm willing to be corrected, there is no surge arrestor that will nullify the effect of a direct hit on a signalling equipment case, or a very near 'miss' of hitting the rails in the immediate vicinity.

Even when the surge arrestors do their job - and 95% of the time they do - you still have to get someone there and replace them before the signalling comes back up. Not a job for the faint hearted if the storm is still around.
 

The Ham

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At least SWT's seamed to learn from their mistakes earlier on in the week, as on Monday evening there was little calling between Woking and Basingstoke. Leading to so very irate passengers being observed at Woking station.

Whilst Friday saw a better service and the only "rail staff" visible at Farnborough Main being BTP (implying it kicked off a bit there earlier in the week).
 

carriageline

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Thanks for the replies. So would all the signals have gone red yesterday? The train describers were obviously not working by 8pm but the signals were so how would the signaller know where the trains were? In this situation could trains go from slow to fast lines? Surprisingly the 17.23 and 18.23 were on time leaving London but they run fast from Surbiton down the slow lines and last night got held up. Either they couldn't change lines or the signalman was so busy dealing with other trains, there wasn't the time to switch them and slot them into the other fast trains on the fast line.


Did they have to do some extensive overnight repairs?


Most fascinating. Turns out the Southern train I caught last night was extra full due to an earlier cancelled train. Wasn't told the until we got near Gatwick Airport. The got held up there as people tried to board. I might have got the next train if I'd known whilst at the station but that's Southern for you. Good at some things and not others.


If everything else was working, and it was just the TDs not working then the signaller can work as normally, and would normally just use post it notes to track trains. Stopping trains and getting them to identify who they are and where they are is also needed sometimes. They could in theory run fast to slow but could also cause a lot of headache! Or the points may just be secured in normal from earlier on.

The TDs and signalling equipment are seperate so the TDs being out won't affect signalling, just makes work a bit harder


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hassaanhc

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It seems real-time train reporting is still not working between Brookwood and Surbiton, almost everything that went through those stations are showing their actual times as No Report. No idea if it is just the public side or if signallers were having issues too with that system being down.
 

30909

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This thread has hardy finished before this happens
Cancellations to services at Woking
Owing to signalling problems at Woking all lines are blocked
We are advising passengers NOT to travel, owing to loss of Signalling in the Woking area Services are suspended between Weybridge and Farnborough, between Weybridge and Guildford ( Via Woking) and between Weybridge and Aldershot
http://www.journeycheck.southwesttrains.co.uk/
Certainly NR and SW Trains are having a difficult time with infrastructure.
 

Kite159

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And the rail replacement bus to reading is full.

Currently stuck at Basingstoke, awaiting news, next train to Reading West will probably be full with the crowds building.
 
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