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Delays due to "train cancellations"

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Dstock7080

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More issues again this weekend on the Met and Circle lines.
This week too, with Circle and H&C finishing at 2100 Tuesday and Wednesday already, with District to Edgware Road suspended Tuesday evening.


This weekend:
CIRCLE and HAMMERSMITH & CITY LINE: Friday 4 June: No service from approx. 2200. Saturday 5 and Sunday 6 June, no service on the whole line.

DISTRICT LINE: Saturday 5 and Sunday 6 June, no service High Street Kensington-Edgware Road.

METROPOLITAN LINE: Saturday 5 and Sunday 6 June, no service between Chalfont & Latimer and Amersham. Please use Chiltern Railways.
After 1830 each day, no service on the whole line.

CHILTERN RAILWAYS: Saturday 5 and Sunday 6 June, no service 1900 and 2100 Marylebone and Great Missenden via Amersham



PICCADILLY LINE: Saturday 5 and Sunday 6 June, no service between South Harrow and Uxbridge. Replacement buses will operate at certain times.
 
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Ralph Ayres

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Replacement buses kick in from around 1730 on both days. Same set up as last weekend.
The evening full line closures last weekend were shown in advance on the "This weekend" page but seemed to vanish from TfL's website on the day itself, only reappearing once the closures actually kicked in. Possibly an over-literal approach to selecting the "Now" option (there isn't a "Later today" one), and most people would expect a warning that they might have trouble getting home again later the same day.
 

CyrusWuff

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Not surprisingly, this is also affecting Chiltern, with replacement buses between Gerrards Cross (rather than the usual Beaconsfield, due to roadworks) and Aylesbury Vale Parkway in lieu of the cancelled trains.
 

MikeWh

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Not surprisingly, this is also affecting Chiltern, with replacement buses between Gerrards Cross (rather than the usual Beaconsfield, due to roadworks) and Aylesbury Vale Parkway in lieu of the cancelled trains.
It must be frustrating to Chiltern that they have to abandon their services thanks to issues elsewhere. I wonder if any thought has been made to adding a crossover beyond Amersham such that platform 1 could be used to terminate Chiltern trains from Aylesbury. Pass control of platform 1 to NR rather than the current boundary beyond the LU depot.
 

CyrusWuff

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It must be frustrating to Chiltern that they have to abandon their services thanks to issues elsewhere. I wonder if any thought has been made to adding a crossover beyond Amersham such that platform 1 could be used to terminate Chiltern trains from Aylesbury. Pass control of platform 1 to NR rather than the current boundary beyond the LU depot.
There's a crossover at Great Missenden which allows Northbound services to terminate in Platform 2, then run empty back to Amersham and return to service there, or Southbound services to terminate in Platform 1 and shunt to Platform 2 to return Northbound.

Unfortunately, it would almost certainly be prohibitively expensive to provide such a facility for Chiltern at Amersham given the current layout allows services to return South from all three platforms, along with a shunt move from Platform 1 to Platform 2 via the Northbound line (as Platform 1 has no access to the sidings) so it would probably mean recontrolling the whole section from Amersham through to the current infrastructure boundary at Piper's Wood foot crossing to Marylebone IECC, thereby creating potential issues for LU!
 

Snow1964

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The evening full line closures last weekend were shown in advance on the "This weekend" page but seemed to vanish from TfL's website on the day itself, only reappearing once the closures actually kicked in. Possibly an over-literal approach to selecting the "Now" option (there isn't a "Later today" one), and most people would expect a warning that they might have trouble getting home again later the same day.
I have noticed this, there is quite a lot of inconsistency in how things appear, sometimes it is literally used as now, other times for info for today with note that reduction expected from xx hours.

As most people would check before a journey (and are only likely to check during a journey if their service appears to have stopped) does seem rather strange to treat now as not including within next couple of hours whilst might be travelling.

And when there is disruption, now isn’t updated instantly, many a time drivers or station staff have announced temporary suspension when I have been on a train but website still shows good service for another 20-60 minutes. In reality probably only good at showing correct info when a person eventually gets around to updating it.
 

Mojo

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I have noticed this, there is quite a lot of inconsistency in how things appear, sometimes it is literally used as now, other times for info for today with note that reduction expected from xx hours.

As most people would check before a journey (and are only likely to check during a journey if their service appears to have stopped) does seem rather strange to treat now as not including within next couple of hours whilst might be travelling.

And when there is disruption, now isn’t updated instantly, many a time drivers or station staff have announced temporary suspension when I have been on a train but website still shows good service for another 20-60 minutes. In reality probably only good at showing correct info when a person eventually gets around to updating it.
The problem being that the shut down and start up of services are managed in such a way that it is not a hard “stop everything now,” but the service is ramped down in such a way to avoid problems elsewhere. For instance with the Picc line to Uxbridge it is planned just over an hour in advance, for the Piccadilly line train will be announced as the last train through but has to get tk Uxbridge and back across the boundary at Rayners Lane before the Service Controller can have their meal relief.

It’s not so much “eventually gets around to updating it,” that is literally someone’s job, but this will only be done at the point where the suspension happens.
 

A60stock

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what are the chances of this happening on the weekend of 12th/13th June? Will really be needing the met that day!
 

Horizon22

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TfL are going to need to get a grip of this soon. People can understand temporary weekend shortages but this has generally been going on for a very long time. There's evidently a shortage in the role yet they also seem unable to recruit externally for it for some reason. I appreciate its a specailst position and the location is less than ideal, but its worth a shot. They could have recruited and trained replacements by now.
 

bluegoblin7

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TfL are going to need to get a grip of this soon. People can understand temporary weekend shortages but this has generally been going on for a very long time. There's evidently a shortage in the role yet they also seem unable to recruit externally for it for some reason. I appreciate its a specailst position and the location is less than ideal, but its worth a shot. They could have recruited and trained replacements by now.
They really couldn't. External recruitment would not solve the issue any quicker.

what are the chances of this happening on the weekend of 12th/13th June? Will really be needing the met that day!
Too early to say, unfortunately.
 

Snow1964

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TfL are going to need to get a grip of this soon. People can understand temporary weekend shortages but this has generally been going on for a very long time. There's evidently a shortage in the role yet they also seem unable to recruit externally for it for some reason. I appreciate its a specailst position and the location is less than ideal, but its worth a shot. They could have recruited and trained replacements by now.

It seems to me that TfL management haven’t been planning ahead as a critical role should always have back up staff.

Could you image flying off to your annual holiday in Spain and being told need to stop 2 hours in France because there is a shortage of trained air traffic controllers and one wants his lunch break.

Whilst I accept training in a pandemic is harder, surely somewhere in the TfL estate, could have found a room big enough to have been training about dozen new staff simultaneously with everyone 2m distanced. You can’t just risk taking on one or two in case they leave or drop out, so it is a basic recruitment failure (months ago) and a lack of prioritisation that has caused this.
 

DavyCrocket

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Quite. Perhaps the COVID is being used as a more acceptable reason?

Surely the cost of any training and recruitment adaptations would be less than the cost of buses and repaying fares, as well as the economic cost to London.

Many other organisations seem to have continued ok with recruitment and training and TfL staff working without PPE

I see today that no reason is given for the closure of the lines. Would TfL pay out for a delay related refund as it is a reason in their control, or would they say it is a planned closure?
 

Watershed

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It seems to me that TfL management haven’t been planning ahead as a critical role should always have back up staff.

Could you image flying off to your annual holiday in Spain and being told need to stop 2 hours in France because there is a shortage of trained air traffic controllers and one wants his lunch break.

Whilst I accept training in a pandemic is harder, surely somewhere in the TfL estate, could have found a room big enough to have been training about dozen new staff simultaneously with everyone 2m distanced. You can’t just risk taking on one or two in case they leave or drop out, so it is a basic recruitment failure (months ago) and a lack of prioritisation that has caused this.
Exactly. Claims that training replacements is/was impossible "due to Covid" simply don't hold up to scrutiny. I know of several TOCs that have recruited and trained new Control staff during the last 15 months, both during and outside of the actual lockdowns.

It sounds like there is a lot more to this than TfL want to admit. Obviously no organisation wants to air its dirty laundry in public, but when the service is being so heavily subsidised, I do think the public have a right to know what's going on and when it's going to be fixed.
 
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Horizon22

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They really couldn't. External recruitment would not solve the issue any quicker.

Why not - this shortage has been ongoing since 2020. Or are there people waiting to be trained? Plenty of people I know at TOCs in safety critical and control office roles (not to mention NR signallers) have been trained throughout 2020.

If its a full on industrial dispute, that's a different matter. I see that @Dstock7080 has linked to the ballot. That is however not what TfL are broadcasting.
 

big_rig

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Why not - this shortage has been ongoing since 2020. Or are there people waiting to be trained? Plenty of people I know at TOCs in safety critical and control office roles (not to mention NR signallers) have been trained throughout 2020.

If its a full on industrial dispute, that's a different matter. I see that @Dstock7080 has linked to the ballot. That is however not what TfL are broadcasting.
Likewise, I am starting to find this really frustrating. Working in the industry I know there are always reasons why various stoppages occur and it doesn't hugely bother me typically, but the service on the sub surface lines is starting to grate. Nothing on the district, circle, hammersmith & city in central London this weekend, no reasons given..just the usual Thursday email saying 'no service on entire line.' Whatever, I will take some circuitous route involving different lines (it's not like there's any other option, I'm hardly going to drive!), but some indication of how long this is going to go on for and why is overdue.
 

Dstock7080

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Nothing on the district, circle, hammersmith & city in central London this weekend, no reasons given..just the usual Thursday email saying 'no service on entire line.'
The District and H&C closure this weekend have been on the planned closure for engineering work list for some months
 

Railguy1

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Quite. Perhaps the COVID is being used as a more acceptable reason?

Surely the cost of any training and recruitment adaptations would be less than the cost of buses and repaying fares, as well as the economic cost to London.

Many other organisations seem to have continued ok with recruitment and training and TfL staff working without PPE

I see today that no reason is given for the closure of the lines. Would TfL pay out for a delay related refund as it is a reason in their control, or would they say it is a planned closure?

I received a refund last week within a day of making the claim, but I used the Met Line.
 

bramling

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Why not - this shortage has been ongoing since 2020. Or are there people waiting to be trained? Plenty of people I know at TOCs in safety critical and control office roles (not to mention NR signallers) have been trained throughout 2020.

If its a full on industrial dispute, that's a different matter. I see that @Dstock7080 has linked to the ballot. That is however not what TfL are broadcasting.

There’s certainly been people waiting to be trained. However from what I’ve heard on the grapevine, some of these have said “I either go somewhere other than Hammersmith, or else I don’t take the role”, which they are of course very entitled to do.

Remember that every time this happens you’re going further down the initial selection score list, and potentially finding that the people who do take it on are those keenest on getting a pay rise - none of which is a problem in itself, but remember we’re talking about a tough job where a proportion of people are likely to fail the training.

The whole thing needs looking at completely from scratch IMO.

Why not - this shortage has been ongoing since 2020. Or are there people waiting to be trained? Plenty of people I know at TOCs in safety critical and control office roles (not to mention NR signallers) have been trained throughout 2020.

If its a full on industrial dispute, that's a different matter. I see that @Dstock7080 has linked to the ballot. That is however not what TfL are broadcasting.

I don’t think it’s a full-on industrial dispute, at least not yet, but more a case that there’s uncovered duties and people aren’t going out of their way to offer themselves up for overtime shifts. Considering it’s a safety-critical role, the whole thing shouldn’t be running on shed loads of overtime, especially from a small pool of staff.
 

Leisurefirst

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The District and H&C closure this weekend have been on the planned closure for engineering work list for some months
I was making a journey with someone who has difficulty walking from the western end of the H&C & Circle this morning to Liverpool Street then to the Essex coast.
Imagine our joy when after having bought the NR tickets online this morning before leaving to arrive at the shut tube station after specifically checking earlier in the week I think it was on TFL's site which IIRC stated no H&C but Circle part suspended only between Edgware Road & Aldgate via Victoria.
Cue frantic 15 minute plus? walk to the nearest Central Line station (bus for the last stop for them as it was coming and that was the only stop that met the walking route).
If I had known they could have gotten the bus to the Central Line all the way rather than us walking in the opposite direction to the closed H&C/Circle.
Can anybody just clear my mind please... I gather from the earlier conversations here this might well have been last minute?
Also, which backs this up, we had a very stressed wheelchair passenger and companions opposite us from Liverpool Street on the NR train who had similarly bought tickets online earlier in the week on the basis they could get the Liverpool Street by the Circle from what I gather and had ended up having to use the Central Line and therefore escalator at LST which they found very scary (now I think of it they could've changed at Stratford instead on the level but perhaps they thought they couldn't because of needing to collect their tickets at LST?)
 

Horizon22

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There’s certainly been people waiting to be trained. However from what I’ve heard on the grapevine, some of these have said “I either go somewhere other than Hammersmith, or else I don’t take the role”, which they are of course very entitled to do.

Remember that every time this happens you’re going further down the initial selection score list, and potentially finding that the people who do take it on are those keenest on getting a pay rise - none of which is a problem in itself, but remember we’re talking about a tough job where a proportion of people are likely to fail the training.

The whole thing needs looking at completely from scratch IMO.



I don’t think it’s a full-on industrial dispute, at least not yet, but more a case that there’s uncovered duties and people aren’t going out of their way to offer themselves up for overtime shifts. Considering it’s a safety-critical role, the whole thing shouldn’t be running on shed loads of overtime, especially from a small pool of staff.
My understanding is that it’s similar to a combination between a NR signaller and a controller but perhaps more intense? Yes tough, but I can’t see why it would an overly high fail rate unless the right people weren’t being recruited, or the training and support hadn’t been properly tailored and planned.
 

bramling

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My understanding is that it’s similar to a combination between a NR signaller and a controller but perhaps more intense? Yes tough, but I can’t see why it would an overly high fail rate unless the right people weren’t being recruited, or the training and support hadn’t been properly tailored and planned.

It’s the intensity of it that’s the issue, and perhaps not helped by inter-grade relations on LU nowadays being pretty dire, so made more difficult than it needs to be.

For sure it’s a tough job when there’s stuff going on, and quite easy to get into bother simply by missing or misinterpreting something. This is why the fail rate is comparatively high.

You’re probably on to something about the training and support too. You could have someone who is very clued up about one line, lives in the right part of London, who gets placed somewhere that’s not convenient and for which they don’t already have prior knowledge, so making the whole thing more challenging than it needed to be.
 

Horizon22

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It’s the intensity of it that’s the issue, and perhaps not helped by inter-grade relations on LU nowadays being pretty dire, so made more difficult than it needs to be.

For sure it’s a tough job when there’s stuff going on, and quite easy to get into bother simply by missing or misinterpreting something. This is why the fail rate is comparatively high.

You’re probably on to something about the training and support too. You could have someone who is very clued up about one line, lives in the right part of London, who gets placed somewhere that’s not convenient and for which they don’t already have prior knowledge, so making the whole thing more challenging than it needed to be.

Again I appreciate that but there are plenty of "intense" and "tough" jobs on the railway which are remunerated accordingly. Something is clearly going endemically wrong if the failure rate is so high; I don't believe for example NR signallers have a high fail rate.

And people can be trained up "from scratch" or with relatively limited knowledge to specialist role with a proper training package and excellent mentors. But with industrial relations not being fantastic, perhaps this has all fallen down. It looks like this is the textbook way on NOT how to manage a transition.
 

bramling

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Again I appreciate that but there are plenty of "intense" and "tough" jobs on the railway which are remunerated accordingly. Something is clearly going endemically wrong if the failure rate is so high; I don't believe for example NR signallers have a high fail rate.

And people can be trained up "from scratch" or with relatively limited knowledge to specialist role with a proper training package and excellent mentors. But with industrial relations not being fantastic, perhaps this has all fallen down. It looks like this is the textbook way on NOT how to manage a transition.

I completely agree the whole process is messed up. The recruitment process is not matching round pegs to round holes, and is more geared towards getting applications from people with limited prior experience.

It possibly doesn’t help that LU has an ever-declining number of traditional signal cabins. This was one way of getting good people - as youngish signallers *tend* to make good controllers (though it’s not a guaranteed pass, but better odds). Some train operators can also make good controllers, but more effort is required to pick the right individuals.

For many other grades the pay differential is sufficiently small that potential candidates can afford to be picky - which is essentially what is happening, and as I posted elsewhere they’re more than within their rights to be so, as if they don’t get where they want then they are quite entitled to decide they don’t want to take on the role.

I think LU is trying to apply it’s usual “number in a box” method of recruitment, and this simply doesn’t work with such a specialised role. Essentially they need the right people more than the right people need the role, and this requires LU to reach out to people, not expect people to be grateful, which is LU’s traditional attitude!

It is more intense than most NR signalling / control roles though. The busiest places on LU will have the controller overseeing potentially over 90 trains, running at headways down to 2 minutes or less, multiple incidents going on at once, multiple crew depots, and on top of that responsible for people stuck in a lift at X, and of course accountable for traction current.

The rooms where you have controllers alternating with control and signal functions work better, as during disruption the people on the signal desks take on a significant element of the controllers tasks. This also seems to foster a more harmonious working atmosphere. The flip side of the coin is that this is very expensive the more signal desks there are: I seem to remember Highgate (4 signal desks at the time) was deemed to be about the limit of where such a setup is deemed financially viable. Perhaps this might have to be revisited, since Highgate worked pretty well from day one - but this isn’t a short term fix for Hammersmith as it would take many years to train up sufficient people, they’d have needed to be on that for years in advance, as happened with Highgate.

The seeds for this go back a few years - there was a “temporary absence of control room staff” one evening a few years ago, when they were still at Baker Street. This points to things not being entirely rosy even then. Unfortunately such issues take a very long time to fix, even with management moved around.
 
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Dstock7080

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Slow return to this situation again, with Circle/H&C services suspended after 2100 both Sunday and yesterday evening, lack of Service Control staff.
 
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TFN

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Slow return to this situation again, with Circle/H&C services suspended after 2100 both Monday and yesterday evening, lack of Service Control staff.
According to the publicity, it'll be the same on Thurs and Friday. Thursday will also have no Circle/H&C until 1200hrs and Sat will see no H&C (due to engineering works?) And no Circle after 2100hrs.

I'm guessing they're prioritising Tues, Wed and Sun for the Euros as there's no engineering works being done on Sunday.
 

whoosh

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Apparently in the last two years, six people have left Hammersmith Control Centre. Four retirements, two to National Rail.
One person has been trained up as a replacement.

One who left said, "Not even a thankyou from Senior Management, despite running with 4 out of 16 staff for a period last year."

Some of those retirements were early retirements, as Hammersmith is a pain to get to/low morale/short staffed, they just had enough.


It looks to me as though TfL have their heads in the sand, ostrich style, over the issues.
 

Lewlew

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There will be no service on the Bakerloo line after 1900 on Sunday 11th due to control room staff having to self isolate.
 

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