Delays to Advance tickets do NOT mean you need to pay again (mythbuster)

[yorkie]

The National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) Condition 14 clearly permits the use of two or more tickets for one journey

...you may use a combination of two or more Tickets to make a journey...

The rail industry does not make tickets available for all journeys; some journeys require a combination of tickets.

Many staff employed in the rail industry also encourage the use of combination of tickets under various circumstances, including (but not limited to):

• where the passenger wishes to book far in advance, and only one leg is open for booking (e.g. a journey such as Edinburgh to Newbury booked 20 weeks in advance);
• where the passenger wishes to travel in 1st class, and there is no through 1st class fare (e.g. Hull to Burnley);
• where there is no through Advance fare (e.g. Stafford to York)

The rail industry's internal KnowledgeBase (iKB) provides further clarification that the use of combinations of such tickets is allowable for one journey, and that Advance tickets remain valid in case of delays:

If the passenger is delayed and the rail industry or its partners (as shown below) is at fault, which should be checked with your Control Office, change to another train of the same company is allowed to get them to their destination with the least delay.

This is irrespective of combinations of rail tickets held.

Normally the customer would be expected to use the same company, though discretion can be shown to allow the use of other companies; to give just one example if a Hereford to London Paddington service is cancelled, a long-standing local instruction exists to redirect passengers to travel via Newport, even though this involves the use of another company's train.

Furthermore, train companies are required to assist any passenger who would otherwise risk being stranded, as Condition 28.2 of the NRCoT states:

Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary provide overnight accommodation for you.

There is no reduction in rights when using a combination of tickets whatsoever.

For example, a passenger may hold any of the following tickets between Sheffield and London:

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=SHF&dest=KGX&rte=576&tkt=GCU
Route: GC & XC ONLY

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=SHF&dest=KGX&rte=431&tkt=USG
AP HULTRNS & TPE

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=SHF&dest=KGX&rte=565&tkt=GCT
GC & NTH VIA DON

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=SHF&dest=EUS&rte=370&tkt=OPR
LNR AND XC ONLY

It is great that such a wide range is available, however this does not cater for all the potential possibilities, such as via Northern & Hull Trains, or any other combination.

Passengers may alternatively mix and match by using any operator, by any route they wish, by purchasing a combination of tickets.

Absolutely no rights are lost when holding any combination of tickets, compared to the equivalent validity that would be made available by the use of any equivalent through fare.

Edit: see also this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-of-number-of-tickets-held-mythbuster.198338/

Rail Delivery Group (RDG) issued a staff brief regarding "split ticketing" on 10th January; included in this brief was the following clarification:



Some train companies (e.g. GWR, SWR) make this explicitly clear in their Passenger Charters.

If you are incorrectly denied a legitimate Delay Repay claim, I would quote this to the relevant company. If they continue to refuse, you can refer them to the Rail Ombudsman.

Delay Repay claims go to the company who caused the delay; if you are further delayed later in the journey, this does not transfer the Delay Repay liability to a different company.

 

[maxbarnish]

Would it be allowable if I print this out so I have it with me in case of any issues - as I sometimes forget the NRCOT section numbers?

 

[800002]

Would it be allowable if I print this out so I have it with me in case of any issues - as I sometimes forget the NRCOT section numbers?

I always find it helpful to politely, but firmly, insist on the person (whoever they they be) telling me I can't I do something or they won't allow me to do something to prove, by showing me the relevant rulebook / regulation.
When they can't, they tend to go quiet.

Having the above printed would certainly assist you in battle, as it were, by proving a decent jumping off point for them to assess where they are coming from, and provide opportunity for them take stock of what they are attempting to say or do.

All in as a constructive way as possible, you understand. Some of these people detest being told they are wrong, even when they clearly are in error.

And thanks for the post Yorkie. I do find the biggest worry i have is getting a delay on the pre-advance section of a journey (even when i know about the above!).

 

[freddie1729]

If the passenger is delayed and the rail industry or its partners (as shown below) is at fault, which should be checked with your Control Office, change to another train of the same company is allowed to get them to their destination with the least delay.

Does this mean that in cases where the rail industry is not at fault, e.g. bad weather, they don't have to help?

 

[maxbarnish]

I do find the biggest worry i have is getting a delay on the pre-advance section of a journey (even when i know about the above!).

I thankfully haven't had this happen often but the only time it happened, it was dealt with professionally, and it involved a split ticket too. Delay on a flexible single Cranbrook to Exeter meant a tight but permitted connection onto the Cross Country service to Birmingham on an advance ticket to Nottingham was missed. Station manager issued paperwork and it was accepted no issue by the train manager. The station manager seemed to be having some fun testing his more junior staff's knowledge, and it wasn't that good really. He asked one of them which cause of NRCOT covered split tickets - they didn't know, but I did.

 

[edwin_m]

• where the passenger wishes to book far in advance, and only one leg is open for booking (e.g. a journey such as Edinburgh to Newbury booked 20 weeks in advance);

Thanks for the useful information. While I was aware of this, I had the impression it was only valid for tickets purchased in the same transaction, which wouldn't allow the situation I've quoted here. What's the actual advice on that point?

 

[gordonthemoron]

Why can't British Stations have ServicePoints like they have in Germany where you can get your ticket endorsed for onward travel?

 

[maxbarnish]

Why can't British Stations have ServicePoints like they have in Germany where you can get your ticket endorsed for onward travel?

Is that not the Station Manager's Office?

Of course only at larger interchange stations

 

[158801]

But...

If using a combination of tickets, you must still travel by the operators specified on your tickets.

So, I hold a Scarborough to York advance “TPE only”
and
York to Newcastle advance “XC” only.

If my Scarborough to York train is delayed I am entitled to catch the next Cross Country service with no penalty. My ticket from York to Newcastle is not valid on LNER or TPE trains.

Likewise, if I hold a XC only ticket from Newcastle to Leeds, a Northern Advance from Leeds to Sheffield and an off peak ticket from Nottingham to Reading route Not London I still need to travel with XC, Northern and use a route that is not through London.

 

[syorksdeano]

This post should be at the top of the page or at least some sort of reference section of tge forum

 

[edwin_m]

But...

If using a combination of tickets, you must still travel by the operators specified on your tickets.

So, I hold a Scarborough to York advance “TPE only”
and
York to Newcastle advance “XC” only.

If my Scarborough to York train is delayed I am entitled to catch the next Cross Country service with no penalty. My ticket from York to Newcastle is not valid on LNER or TPE trains.

Likewise, if I hold a XC only ticket from Newcastle to Leeds, a Northern Advance from Leeds to Sheffield and an off peak ticket from Nottingham to Reading route Not London I still need to travel with XC, Northern and use a route that is not through London.

Unless ticket acceptance is in place. A few years ago I had a Nottingham to Glasgow splitting at somewhere on the ECML, and when I got to the station I found that the wires were down near Retford. I was able to use the pair of tickets via Manchester with no quibble, using not an inch of the track they were intended for, and as a bonus got in 17min earlier than my original itinerary.

 

[_toommm_]

Unless ticket acceptance is in place. A few years ago I had a Nottingham to Glasgow splitting at somewhere on the ECML, and when I got to the station I found that the wires were down near Retford. I was able to use the pair of tickets via Manchester with no quibble, using not an inch of the track they were intended for, and as a bonus got in 17min earlier than my original itinerary.

The same happened to me going Aberdeen to Manchester Vic, originally planned ScotRail Advance to Edinburgh, Virgin Advance to Wigan NW, CountyCard to Manchester Vic. The ScotRail was cancelled so I was somehow allowed to go LNER to York and TPE to Manchester . Still amazed to this day...

 

[gray1404]

Sadly it can work the other way. I was once travelling from Milton Keynes Central to Liverpool on a WMT Advance. Problems with WMT meant that my train was cancelled and if I was told by WMT staff that I had to go as far as possible on WMT (i.e. to Crewe) and from there I'd have to ask the station staff to arrange a taxi for me - as it was clear that by the time I'd get to Crewe with WMT there would be no more services to Liverpool with any TOC. I thought this was stupid advice given it was still possible to complete the entire journey by train if I was able to use Virgin Trains. Thankfully a word with VT platform staff resulted in the train manager of the next VT allowing me to travel to Crewe and I was able to get a connection to complete my journey.

I understand that during disruption you have to stick to the routing or TOC of your ticket (and it doesn't become an Any Permitted all of a sudden). However, I do have a limit whereby I will not accept bad advise if it is going to leave me stranded. I am of the view that it is better to complete a journey by train if possible then end up having to be at the mercy of a TOC provided taxi.

 

[yorkie]

Would it be allowable if I print this out so I have it with me in case of any issues - as I sometimes forget the NRCOT section numbers?

Absolutely.

I always find it helpful to politely, but firmly, insist on the person (whoever they they be) telling me I can't I do something or they won't allow me to do something to prove, by showing me the relevant rulebook / regulation.
When they can't, they tend to go quiet.

Having the above printed would certainly assist you in battle, as it were, by proving a decent jumping off point for them to assess where they are coming from, and provide opportunity for them take stock of what they are attempting to say or do.

All in as a constructive way as possible, you understand. Some of these people detest being told they are wrong, even when they clearly are in error.

And thanks for the post Yorkie. I do find the biggest worry i have is getting a delay on the pre-advance section of a journey (even when i know about the above!).

Yes, you are right that some people do not like being told they are wrong.

An example of this is a couple from York posted this thread back in 2010: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/norwich-peterborough-york-combo-ticket-problem.35445/ ; the Guard is well known among passengers and rail staff alike for incorrectly rejecting valid tickets. That Guard had ignored EC (now LNER) issued Pricing & Ticketing Updates which made the position clear. The Guard did not like being told he was wrong and issued an Unpaid Fare Notice. The matter was resolved after I assisted the couple (having met them at The Fox pub in Holgate, York; "a pub whose history is inextricably linked to the golden age of rail" - how apt!) by making use of various contacts.

Due to insufficient safeguards being in place, EC and its various successors effectively allowed the Guard to continue to incorrectly charge several people since then, including (to give just two examples) rejecting a valid ticket routed via Peterborough as being "invalid" via Peterborough and refusing to acknowledge the inter-availability of Tyne & Wear Metro & National Rail tickets on the Newcastle to Sunderland route, despite this being clearly stated in the iKB.

This Guard has caused the company to not only have to issue refunds, but further compensation too. He's still out there on the route, though he knows not to charge people on these particular issues.

So we know some rail staff will ignore their own internal memos, ignore the NRCoT, ignore the iKB, and will not back down when they are told they are wrong.

But in these cases, my advice is to keep all receipts and documentation and evidence, and obtain a FULL refund and apology. You should not only get a refund but additional compensation too.

Does this mean that in cases where the rail industry is not at fault, e.g. bad weather, they don't have to help?

Any such matter relating to a TOCs liabilities in the event of major incidents is probably best discussed in a separate thread, but what I meant was that if there was a train operated by the wrong company and that was a way to avoid a customer being stranded, then it must be offered. e.g. if you are booked on the last Grand Central or Hull Trains departure out of King's Cross, then LNER would not be able to refuse you carriage on a train operated by them, on the basis of the ticket being invalid on their services, ie. they can't strand you over a ticketing matter.

I thankfully haven't had this happen often but the only time it happened, it was dealt with professionally, and it involved a split ticket too. Delay on a flexible single Cranbrook to Exeter meant a tight but permitted connection onto the Cross Country service to Birmingham on an advance ticket to Nottingham was missed. Station manager issued paperwork and it was accepted no issue by the train manager. The station manager seemed to be having some fun testing his more junior staff's knowledge, and it wasn't that good really. He asked one of them which cause of NRCOT covered split tickets - they didn't know, but I did.

Good to hear it was dealt with properly and that the manager was able to pass on good knowledge to the junior staff.

Thanks for the useful information. While I was aware of this, I had the impression it was only valid for tickets purchased in the same transaction, which wouldn't allow the situation I've quoted here. What's the actual advice on that point?

My advice would be to obtain the tickets in one transaction, preferably as one itinerary from a "split ticketing" provider, if possible. But it's not always possible. Buying them in separate transactions does not reduce your rights. But if you do use a "split ticketing" provider, you have one itinerary which is clear evidence that even unknowledgeable staff would find difficult to refute. One itinerary is clear evidence of a contract, without having to refer staff to the relevant Conditions. I also know that many (if not all) of the split ticketing providers would assist a customer in the event of a dispute.

Why can't British Stations have ServicePoints like they have in Germany where you can get your ticket endorsed for onward travel?

There is no requirement for tickets to be endorsed. However if you have time to get endorsement without missing the next available train then it is sensible to do so.

But...

If using a combination of tickets, you must still travel by the operators specified on your tickets.

So, I hold a Scarborough to York advance “TPE only”
and
York to Newcastle advance “XC” only.

If my Scarborough to York train is delayed I am entitled to catch the next Cross Country service with no penalty. My ticket from York to Newcastle is not valid on LNER or TPE trains.

Likewise, if I hold a XC only ticket from Newcastle to Leeds, a Northern Advance from Leeds to Sheffield and an off peak ticket from Nottingham to Reading route Not London I still need to travel with XC, Northern and use a route that is not through London.

I refer you to my Sheffield to London example above; it's got nothing to do with "split tickets" as such and exactly the same principle applies to through fares routed on a combination of offers.

However passengers may take a train operated by a different company (regardless of whether this is on one ticket, or more than one ticket) if ticket acceptance is in place or if acceptance isn't in place but permission is given by relevant staff.

Unless ticket acceptance is in place. A few years ago I had a Nottingham to Glasgow splitting at somewhere on the ECML, and when I got to the station I found that the wires were down near Retford. I was able to use the pair of tickets via Manchester with no quibble, using not an inch of the track they were intended for, and as a bonus got in 17min earlier than my original itinerary.

Agreed

Sadly it can work the other way. I was once travelling from Milton Keynes Central to Liverpool on a WMT Advance. Problems with WMT meant that my train was cancelled and if I was told by WMT staff that I had to go as far as possible on WMT (i.e. to Crewe) and from there I'd have to ask the station staff to arrange a taxi for me - as it was clear that by the time I'd get to Crewe with WMT there would be no more services to Liverpool with any TOC. I thought this was stupid advice given it was still possible to complete the entire journey by train if I was able to use Virgin Trains. Thankfully a word with VT platform staff resulted in the train manager of the next VT allowing me to travel to Crewe and I was able to get a connection to complete my journey.

This cropped up in another post recently but I think the subject deserves a dedicated thread; it's not a "split ticketing" matter and equally applies when holding one ticket, as you did.