Deliberate msinformation on departure boards at Euston?

[Bensonby]

I travelled from Euston to Milton Keynes yesterday and knew that I wanted to catch the 1516 Avanti service to Glasgow Central to get me to Milton Keynes 30 minutes later.

I got to Euston with 6-7 minutes to spare and caught the train in good time. However, as I walked through the concourse, I glanced at the new departure board and saw the section with “next fastest train to…” and it listed the next fasted train to Milton Keynes as being the (slower) 1523 service to Birmingham - arriving more than 20 minutes after the Avanti service.

Is this deliberate misinformation to push passengers away from the Avanti service, or was it because I was only a few minutes away from the doors being closed? (Even though I still got on the train with a few minutes to spare).

 

[zwk500]

I travelled from Euston to Milton Keynes yesterday and knew that I wanted to catch the 1516 Avanti service to Glasgow Central to get me to Milton Keynes 30 minutes later. I got to Euston with 6-7 minutes to spare and caught the train in good time. However, as I walked through the Concorde I glanced at the new departure board and saw the section with “next fastest train to…” and it listed the next fasted train to Milton Keynes as being the (slower) 1523 service to Birmingham - arriving more than 20 minutes after the Avanti service.

Is this deliberate misinformation to push passengers away from the Avanti service, or was it because I was only a few minutes away from the doors being closed? (Even though I still got on the train with a few minutes to spare).

From what I remember of the discussion of the new boards at Euston, there are 2 next fastest trains, one for each operator, shown to MKC (And other destinations served by both operators), for the benefit of people on TOC-specific tickets.

 

[Bensonby]

Ah that could be it: I must admit I didn’t scrutinise the board in huge detail: I was glancing up to see if the train was on time.

 

[zwk500]

Ah that could be it: I must admit I didn’t scrutinise the board in huge detail: I was glancing up to see if the train was on time.

On this post: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/euston-departure-board-to-be-moved.239403/page-3#post-5954741 you can see under Manchester Piccadilly on the 2nd photo there are next fastest trains to 'Avanti' and 'LNWR', right where Milton Keynes would come alphabetically. I expect this is scrolling through. The LNR time shown in that photo also lines up with the next train to MKC shown on the Departure board as well (the 16.46 to Crewe from P7).

 

[mister-sparky]

It’s also probably to discourage people from using the Glasgow train to go one stop to mk

 

[zwk500]

It’s also probably to discourage people from using the Glasgow train to go one stop to mk

It doesn't do that though - if the Glasgow is the next fastest Avanti it'll show. It's just that because of the high number of TOC-Specific tickets it's better to show Milton Keynes Central - Avanti and Milton Keynes Central - LNWR as two separate rows than confuse people when departures are close together.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s also probably to discourage people from using the Glasgow train to go one stop to mk

No, it's not. Avanti are more than happy for people to do that, they sell their own TOC specific tickets which are generally 10p cheaper than LNR's.

I've noticed of late that because so many people have TOC specific tickets, PIS (audio and visual) on the south WCML is now set to show departures separately. In particular the "your next fastest direct service" is now "your next fastest direct Avanti West Coast service" etc when there's a cancellation, so people aren't erroneously suggested to board an invalid train.

 

[duncanp]

When I was at Euston yesterday morning the departure board showed two "next fastest trains" to Birmingham New Street.

At first, the screen didn't indicate that one was for Avanti (the 06:16) and the other was for LNWR (the 06:21)

It was only if you stood at the screen for about 15 seconds did it show which train was for which TOC.

If you just looked at the board and saw that the next fastest train was the 06:16, and you had a LNWR only ticket, you would go straight to the platform (which was no. 13) and it would only be when you met the charming Avanti ticket checkers would they tell you that you couldn't board the train.

People unfamiliar with the UK rail network are not going to appreciate why there are two "next fastest trains" to the same destination.

 

[zwk500]

It was only if you stood at the screen for about 15 seconds did it show which train was for which TOC.

15 seconds sounds like hyperbole. I've not been through Euston since the new screens came in, but usually those kind of scrollings change within 2-3 seconds.

 

[Bensonby]

15 seconds sounds like hyperbole. I've not been through Euston since the new screens came in, but usually those kind of scrollings change within 2-3 seconds.

Perhaps, but i didn’t notice this when I just glanced up to check the platform as I was walking across the concourse: I already knew which train I wanted so didn’t look for more than a second or two.

 

[DarloRich]

Why do posters here always jump to conspiracy? The new boards at Euston are much easier to read than the ones they replaced. I was there on Saturday night and there was no confusion about which train was which. It even seemed to be colour coded!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why do posters here always jump to conspiracy? The new boards at Euston are much easier to read than the ones they replaced. I was there on Saturday night and there was no confusion about which train was which. It even seemed to be colour coded!

There are two main issues with them - too few panels (so too few trains are shown) and the position of them. Ideally I'd replace the old board with the same system, but it would work OK if they just removed the second one on the Tube station side which would have one roughly balanced in terms of which side passengers enter the station. There are a few software tweaks to make too, e.g. replace the "rude" "Wait" with "Please Wait" but the actual display itself isn't the problem with them by and large.

 

[43066]

Perhaps, but i didn’t notice this when I just glanced up to check the platform as I was walking across the concourse: I already knew which train I wanted so didn’t look for more than a second or two.

So rather than “deliberate misinformation” on the departure board, it sounds like you might have simply misread it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So rather than “deliberate misinformation” on the departure board, it sounds like you might have simply misread it?

I don't think it's entirely clear to be fair to the OP. I don't think alternating information works well unless it alternates often, e.g. about every 2-3 seconds, or there's space for something to clearly indicate that it alternates e.g. "Page 1 of 2" or the scroll bar thing some displays have. The delay is much longer. I've seen quite a number of people comment about it being confusing.

It may be better to configure it to display something like "MKC VT" and "MKC LM" and bin the alternating. (Yes, those are still the TOC codes, or you could use AWC and LNR). Most people will get MKC for Milton Keynes Central, COV for Coventry, BHM for Birmingham New St etc - they're not confusing ones, and for ones that might not be as clear e.g. BHI you could fit something like "B Intl" in.

 

[DarloRich]

There are two main issues with them - too few panels (so too few trains are shown) and the position of them. Ideally I'd replace the old board with the same system

Agreed the positioning seems odd - but the new boards are MUCH easier to read from a longer distance than the old ones.

 

[43066]

It may be better to configure it to display something like "MKC VT" and "MKC LM" and bin the alternating. (Yes, those are still the TOC codes, or you could use AWC and LNR). Most people will get MKC for Milton Keynes Central, COV for Coventry, BHM for Birmingham New St etc - they're not confusing ones, and for ones that might not be as clear e.g. BHI you could fit something like "B Intl" in.

Not to say it couldn’t be better, but I strongly doubt use of three letter codes would be “not confusing” to people who aren’t intricately familiar with the railway. Where I am people struggle even with full names being announced, clearly displayed on the side of every carriage and on the front of trains!

 

[Taunton]

The whole concept of "Next fastest train" information seems incompatible with TOC-specific tickets, which passengers are meant to understand by themselves. Especially when the information board has to have the display hacked to alternating displays. Contrary to the opinion of some on here, a good number of passengers still do not grasp the concept of separate TOCs, especially multiple on the same route, which was originally just an internal approach but has got extended to penalty-fareing those who don't understand it, exacerbated by changing the names at each franchise rollover, and TOCs gaming Orcats by offering specific tickets just 10p cheaper (as described above) so they can scoop all the revenue outside the standard allocation process.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed the positioning seems odd - but the new boards are MUCH easier to read from a longer distance than the old ones.

Victoria has the new style installed in place of the old ones and they're excellent.

The whole concept of "Next fastest train" information seems incompatible with TOC-specific tickets, which passengers are meant to understand by themselves. Especially when the information board has to have the display hacked to alternating displays. Contrary to the opinion of some on here, a good number of passengers still do not grasp the concept of separate TOCs, especially multiple on the same route, which was originally just an internal approach but has got extended to penalty-fareing those who don't understand it, exacerbated by changing the names at each franchise rollover, and TOCs gaming Orcats by offering specific tickets just 10p cheaper (as described above) so they can scoop all the revenue outside the standard allocation process.

It's fairly well-understood on the WCML because it's so well established that there are two TOCs with (other than Milton Keynes) two price points.

Not to say it couldn’t be better, but I strongly doubt use of three letter codes would be “not confusing” to people who aren’t intricately familiar with the railway. Where I am people struggle even with full names being announced, clearly displayed on the side of every carriage and on the front of trains!

People cope with stuff like "M'cr", "L'pool" and "B'ham" on road signs. It's not rocket science, and if you don't understand it there's always the main board. The three letter codes MKC, COV and BHM are pretty self explanatory, but if you don't want to use those you could use M.Keyns and B'ham instead. (Anyone who doesn't get "COV" probably knows so little they need to just ask staff - I doubt anyone in the UK doesn't know where you're talking about if you refer to "Cov").

 

[Andy Pacer]

Does the train "drop off" the departure screens 2 or 3 minutes prior to departure? In which case the display could be showing the next fastest departure after the AWC service?

 

[DarloRich]

Contrary to the opinion of some on here, a good number of passengers still do not grasp the concept of separate TOCs,

take the point but Milton Keynes > Euston customers are pretty switched on about this. We have has a few years of 2 TOC's operating ( we even had 3 at one point!) so it is well ingrained!

 

[Andy Pacer]

take the point but Milton Keynes > Euston customers are pretty switched on about this. We have has a few years of 2 TOC's operating ( we even had 3 at one point!) so it is well ingrained!

Go on then, i'm feeling dim. What was the 3rd TOC? (I was thinking Southern but presumably not from Euston)

 

[DarloRich]

Go on then, i'm feeling dim. What was the 3rd TOC? (I was thinking Southern but presumably not from Euston)

Southern - although they didn't go to Euston they did duplicate much of the LNWR "slow" service south of Milton Keynes.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Southern - although they didn't go to Euston they did duplicate much of the LNWR "slow" service south of Milton Keynes.

Thanks, glad I wasn't losing my mind!

 

[greatkingrat]

There was the short-lived First North Western service from Manchester to Euston as well, although I'm not sure if that stopped at MKC or not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There was the short-lived First North Western service from Manchester to Euston as well, although I'm not sure if that stopped at MKC or not.

I'm fairly sure it didn't. It did do Watford though.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Don't think its deliberate misinformation. I just think its so overcomplicated its just a confusing mess.
Same at Charing Cross. Trains all different colours on the board. To what end?
They just need to put the train departures on the departure board in time order and have done with it

 

[Bletchleyite]

Same at Charing Cross. Trains all different colours on the board. To what end?

To show at a glance their status.

Blue = wait
Green = boarding
Red = cancelled

 

[riceuten]

This reminds of when slow trains from Kings Cross to Cambridge would show "Foxton" as a destination to make sure people got on the Cambridge Cruiser instead.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This reminds of when slow trains from Kings Cross to Cambridge would show "Foxton" as a destination to make sure people got on the Cambridge Cruiser instead.

It's the exact opposite of that.

 

[Surreytraveller]

To show at a glance their status.

Blue = wait
Green = boarding
Red = cancelled

How's that explained to the public?