Denied travel at Paddington in the evening peak despite holding a valid ticket

[bnm]

Gateline staffer on the overbridge refused to let me through to board the 1800 to Bristol. I actually put the wrong ticket in the gate and got the 'Seek Assistance'. I showed the member of staff the correct valid ticket. Had I put the correct ticket in the staff member would have been none the wiser.

As it was he told me my ticket was not valid, refused to let me through and told me to go to the ticket office via platform 1 to get it changed/excessed.

Now I could just have gone via Platform 1 to another gateline if I'd rushed but decided instead to do as requested.

I knew my ticket was valid, but had no proof other than the two letter validity code that was actually printed on it. I asked in the ticket office, after queueing for some 15 minutes, for confirmation of the text that applied to the validity code for my ticket. This request was refused and despite the clerk, a colleague, and a supervisor looking up the validity they were all adamant that I couldn't travel on my ticket until 1930. They had the text there in front of them. The fare was set by another TOC but these FGW staff all said that Paddington's evening restrictions overrode the published validity. I couldn't get them to give me permission to travel and I was warned that if I tried boarding the 1830 I may be liable to a penalty fare, excess or prosecution. The supervisor actually walked away from me mid-conversation, but not before ensuring the microphone was on full volume where his berating me could be heard by all those in the queue. After he walked away the clerk just shrugged his shoulders.

As no one in the ticket office would confirm validity, despite them having it there in front of them on both the Journey Planner and from consulting 'The Manual', I left. I went to the information desk and requested the Duty Station Manager. In just under 10 minutes he understood the issue, confirmed my ticket was valid 'At Any Time' on the return journey and provided me with a print out of the text for the relevant validity code. By now though I'd missed the 1830 so I was delayed by an hour by the incompetence of the gateline staffer, two ticket office clerks and a ticket office supervisor. I can somewhat forgive the gateline staffer whose training in ticket validities will be minimal - although the benefit of the doubt should have been given. It's harder to forgive the ticket office staff who had the information there in front of them, but chose to ignore it.

Follwing an email complaint correspondence received yesterday included compensation for the delay and acknowledgement that my 'Off Peak Day Return' was valid 'At Any Time' on the return journey. There's a promise that my complaint and how I was dealt with at Paddington will be brought to the attention of senior management.

As part of the complaint I also brought up the issue of the screens at Paddington showing the 'Off Peak tickets are not valid on this service' messages. I've said many times that this is misleading as there are a wide variety of journeys for which travel out of Paddington on an Off Peak ticket in the evening peak is allowed. My ticket was just such one of these. This part of my complaint is to be forwarded to Paddington's station manager. I have little hope that anything will change in this respect though.

The letter finishes by telling me that FGW wish to ensure that their staff are trained to a level where they are fully able to explain restrictions attached to each ticket. I hope that will be the case. Ticket office staff have the tools at their disposal and if the official systems say a ticket is valid that should be accurately communicated. Paddington's evening restrictions are not a blanket rule and staff should not be assuming they are.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Yep. You don't have to be doing anything wrong to be deemed guilty of something......

 

[Be3G]

This brings to mind a recent-ish thread where someone was denied a printout of a validity code's text by FGW ticket office staff at Paddington. Seems that customer service isn't exactly their foremost priority. At least you managed to find one member of staff who understood, bnm! I get the impression that's more success than some people get to experience.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Not really my part of the country, but ISTR there was a list of 'barred' services out of Paddington with Off-Peak (or possibly Off-Peak Day) tickets, I don't know if it is still in use or if the 1800 is one of those services, I'll have to check tomorrow if I get time.

 

[bnm]

Not really my part of the country, but ISTR there was a list of 'barred' services out of Paddington with Off-Peak (or possibly Off-Peak Day) tickets, I don't know if it is still in use or if the 1800 is one of those services, I'll have to check tomorrow if I get time.

There is a list of 'barred' trains on posters. But that can't trump the validity of the ticket, despite what FGW and it's staff at Paddington would like to misleading make passengers think.

The posters and screens can't be part of the contract between TOC and passenger as they are, in most cases, only seen after the contract has been entered into. The ticket validity code is available (nominally - the TOCs don't make it easy and stack the deck in their favour) before contract is entered into.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I mean there was a list in the validity of the ticket, in the old NFMs it was in amongst the restriction codes.

 

[soil]

I mean there was a list in the validity of the ticket, in the old NFMs it was in amongst the restriction codes.

Depends on the ticket. If you get an FGW-priced off-peak ticket, yes.

Off-peak tickets valid between Reading and Paddington, but not priced by FGW, would have a different restriction code, and usually no evening restrictions.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Not in the restriction code itself, between the short section on ticket details and the restriction codes

 

[JamesRowden]

In 2011 I was travelling back to Reading from Leeds on an off-peak ticket that I knew was valid. When I got to the ticket barrier from the Hamersmith and City platforms for the 18:00 to Bristol the barrier displayed 'seek assistance'. At first the staff member did not seem sure that my ticket was valid but eventually he did let us through the gate.

 

[yorkie]

It's disappointing to hear these problems are still occurring, but I don't think FGW will actually address them (despite saying they will), so I predict people will still be told their valid tickets are invalid in future.

Are gateline assistants revenue trained? If so, the training should be better.

If not, then why are they telling people their tickets are not valid? Something not quite right there!

 

[bnm]

Not in the restriction code itself, between the short section on ticket details and the restriction codes

Publicly available? I, as a passenger I have to go by what the "definitive source for all passenger rail services", National Rail Enquiries, tells me. From there I learn that the restriction code for my ticket was C4. No reference to a list of trains, no reference to another section on validity.

Therefore it should be safe to assume that I can travel 'By any train' on my return journey and not be arbitrarily denied that because a screen or poster says otherwise after I've purchased the ticket. And certainly not when staff, having checked the validity, say their company's own rules trump the contract I've entered into.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Off-peak tickets valid between Reading and Paddington, but not priced by FGW, would have a different restriction code, and usually no evening restrictions.

As a general rule of thumb, if the ticket is from well beyond Paddington, then it's valid. There was a thread by someone who was only allowed to board when he pointed out that he had a reservation for the train in question.

So is it poor training or a deliberate policy of deception?

There is a pricing anomaly though that they might wish to cover up, where a valid off peak fare from somewhere beyond Paddington costs less than the peak fare to or from Paddington.

It would be less confusing if worse for the passengers, if tickets said something like "not valid on peak InterCity" with trains specifically designated that way for all or part of the journey.

 

[bnm]

Are gateline assistants revenue trained? If so, the training should be better.

If not, then why are they telling people their tickets are not valid? Something not quite right there!

Because, either through omission or incorrect training, they've been led to believe by their superiors that what they are saying is correct.

It's endemic. I had a gateline staffer at another FGW station telling me, first I was off route, and second, that I couldn't break my journey. On the first point she came to that conclusion because she didn't know where my destination station was, despite it also being a FGW station. On the second point she couldn't provide a coherent reason and told me to go the ticket office where they would confirm that I couldn't break my journey. The ticket office clerk confirmed the exact opposite and told the gateline staffer, from whom I got the most begrudging of apologies. Despite that, my ticket was unnecessarily closely studied when I returned to the station an hour later and I was held up while she let other passengers through. Definite power trip and someone who should not be in the job or at the very least needs more training.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Publicly available?....

Not sure, it used to be, but assuming it still exists, I don't think it is on the NRES pdf files (they seemed to remove the first parts of the data a while ago and left just the restriction codes).

....I, as a passenger I have to go by what the "definitive source for all passenger rail services", National Rail Enquiries, tells me. From there I learn that the restriction code for my ticket was C4. No reference to a list of trains, no reference to another section on validity....

The journey planner itself should account for any barred services, but without a list of services to work from I can't test it.

....And certainly not when staff, having checked the validity, say their company's own rules trump the contract I've entered into.

If it is in the ticket validities it is in the contract (rather than being 'their company's own rules'), though I can't say what the legalities of that are, not being a lawyer 'n' all.

 

[Qwerty133]

Because, either through omission or incorrect training, they've been led to believe by their superiors that what they are saying is correct.

It's endemic. I had a gateline staffer at another FGW station telling me, first I was off route, and second, that I couldn't break my journey. On the first point she came to that conclusion because she didn't know where my destination station was, despite it also being a FGW station. On the second point she couldn't provide a coherent reason and told me to go the ticket office where they would confirm that I couldn't break my journey. The ticket office clerk confirmed the exact opposite and told the gateline staffer, from whom I got the most begrudging of apologies. Despite that, my ticket was unnecessarily closely studied when I returned to the station an hour later and I was held up while she let other passengers through. Definite power trip and someone who should not be in the job or at the very least needs more training.

Sadly it's not just FGW gate line staff with no clue as to ticketing and at least FGW staff seem to have a good understanding of English which is more than can be said about certain gate line staff at leicester who told me a season ticket between narborough and a station on the derwent valley line wasn't valid at this station and as soon as I questioned him he got his colleague (talking to him in a foreign language) who also didn't think the ticket was valid but did let me through the barrier after I told him I was going to narborough and had come from whatstandwell about 20 times.

 

[bnm]

The journey planner itself should account for any barred services, but without a list of services to work from I can't test it.

And when that disagrees with the restriction code? As was the case with the clerks and supervisor at Paddington. JP said "no". Restriction code text said, in two places (pop up from the JP and in 'The Manual'), "yes".

It seems that journey planners and booking engines are wrongly applying the C4 restriction (and possibly others) to itineraries for journeys through Paddington in the evening.

No doubt FGW and others will say that the restriction code is wrong. If so they should take that up with the fare setters at the other TOCs using that code. Not deny travel to someone adhering to their side of the contract.

The TOCs trade body say that they are "Britain's train companies working together". Unfortunately it would appear they are doing so for their own benefit and not the benefit of the travelling public.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

And when that disagrees with the restriction code? As was the case with the clerks and supervisor at Paddington. JP said "no". Restriction code text said, in two places (pop up from the JP and in 'The Manual'), "yes".

It seems that journey planners and booking engines are wrongly applying the C4 restriction (and possibly others) to itineraries for journeys through Paddington in the evening...

The 'barred' list was not in the restriction code itself (maybe I'm going mad but I thought I had already mentioned this:roll, so of course the restriction code will not show it! It was listed for ALL Off-Peak (or possibly Off-Peak Day) tickets before the first restriction code, a section that NRES no longer shows, to my knowledge. There have been threads on this forum in the past about the list of barred trains out of Paddington, but not for a while which is partly why I am not sure it still exists, I will have to check before I can say categorically one way or the other.

 

[bnm]

Do check to see if it's in the public domain also and linked in some way to the ticket buying process, however that is carried out - office, online, TVM.

If it isn't it can't be enforced as a contract term.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Not sure how I can find it in the public domain any easier than you, but I can check journey planners.

 

[Be3G]

I think I read somewhere on here that the list you're referring to hairyhandedfool had been removed, and integrated in to individual restriction codes instead. It wouldn't surprise me if that coincided with the availability of restriction code information on the NRE website, but that bit's just conjecture on my part.

 

[soil]

The journey planners do not show any restriction on such tickets:

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/RDG/PBR/030613/1100/dep/030613/1836/arr

 

[sheff1]

So is it poor training or a deliberate policy of deception?

Well, a number of posters on here have objected to the term 'poor training', so I guess the choice is between incompetence and a deliberate policy.

It is also noticeable that the 'you should read the T&Cs when you buy your ticket' brigade are usually absent from this sort of thread. If they do appear, the line is 'staff can't be expected to to know the validity of every possible ticket'. The latter is, of course, true but when said staff wilfully ignore the evidence of their own eyes when the validity code restriction is on the screen in front of them, I can only conclude it is a deliberate policy of (self) deception.

 

[bnm]

The journey planners do not show any restriction on such tickets:

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/RDG/PBR/030613/1100/dep/030613/1836/arr

However, click through to a retailer and you find that most return services are greyed out when you select the Off Peak Day Return. On your example, and going through to FCC's booking engine, it permits travel on the 1636 (destination Exeter) and 1745 (destination Swansea) off Paddington, but no other services until the 1945. Quite why those two fast services alone are allowed but no others is beyond me.

 

[benk1342]

Can anyone with access to/knowledge of the data feeds explain this discrepancy?

 

[duncanp]

Well, a number of posters on here have objected to the term 'poor training', so I guess the choice is between incompetence and a deliberate policy.

It is also noticeable that the 'you should read the T&Cs when you buy your ticket' brigade are usually absent from this sort of thread. If they do appear, the line is 'staff can't be expected to to know the validity of every possible ticket'. The latter is, of course, true but when said staff wilfully ignore the evidence of their own eyes when the validity code restriction is on the screen in front of them, I can only conclude it is a deliberate policy of (self) deception.

If "...staff can't be expected to know the validity of every possible ticket...." then how on earth can the passenger be expected to do the same?

Surely it would be possible to print the validity code somewhere on the ticket, and then for gateline staff to have some kind of handheld device which they can use to check whether a ticket is valid.

When someone is buying a ticket online or from a machine, a pop up window giving details of the validity should appear, with an option to continue with or cancel the purchase.

 

[jkdd77]

I think this might be the list hairyhandedfool was referring to:

RETURN TRAVEL:

By any train except those
timed to depart London
Paddington or Waterloo before
0920, Vauxhall before 0923,
and those shown in the
table below from London
Paddington and Reading:

From From Final
Padd Rdg Destination
1600 1627 Bristol TM (BRI)
1606___1633___Penzance (PNZ)
1615___1641___Swansea (SWA)
1630___1657___Taunton (TAU)
1633___1704___Exeter St D(EXD)
1645___1711___Swansea (SWA)
1649___1720___Oxford (OXF)
1700___1726___Bristol TM (BRI)
1703___1732___Penzance (PNZ)
1715 1741___Swansea (SWA)
1722 1750 Hereford (HFD)
1730 1756 Taunton (TAU)
1733 1804 Paignton (PGN)
1745___1811___Swansea (SWA)
1748 1816 Cheltenham (CNM)
1750 1822 Worcester (WOS)
1800 1827 Bristol TM (BRI)
1803 1833 Penzance (PNZ)
1815 1841 Swansea (SWA)
1822 1850 Hereford (HFD)
1830 1856 Weston SM (WSM)
1833 1902 Exeter (EXD) FX
1833 1902 Plymouth(PLY) FO
1845 1911 Swansea (SWA)
1847 1918 Cheltenham (CNM)
1851 1922 Oxford (OXF)
1900 1927 Bristol TM (BRI)
1903 1933 Plymouth(PLY)_FX
1903 1933 Penzance(PNZ) FO
1915 1941 Swansea (SWA)

Some restriction codes mention this list, others, such as the restriction code in question here, namely, C4, don't, and there is nothing in the general conditions or notes on the right hand side of the text to suggest that there is any additional restriction.

My view is that it is valid. Journey planners are not the definitive source of validity- the restriction code is.

 

[snail]

Surely it would be possible to print the validity code somewhere on the ticket, and then for gateline staff to have some kind of handheld device which they can use to check whether a ticket is valid. It is though still open to the whims of gateline and other railway staff. It is though still open to the whims of gateline or other railway staff.

When someone is buying a ticket online or from a machine, a pop up window giving details of the validity should appear, with an option to continue with or cancel the purchase.

Have you read the OP? The validity code was printed on the ticket. The Fast Ticket TVMs I use always show validity details before confirming purchase where there is a restriction.

Given the complex ticketing rules it's impractical for stations to set out every possible code, so I don't have a problem with the message 'off peak tickets are not valid'. The displays at Euston say this on evening peak WCML trains yet north of Preston, Off Peak tickets are valid from 0905 onwards. You can always ask if you think your ticket is ok. They could say 'certain off peak tickets' or 'most off peak tickets', but that wouldn't really solve the problem.

I'm a bit worried for a trip I'm doing this week from Wigan to Telford via Wolverhampton. Off Peak tickets to Wolverhampton have validity 2R, trains after 0900 but to Telford it's 2T, trains after 0415. Naturally I bought the cheaper Off Peak but one hopes the TM will know the restrictions or accept the itinerary that I will take with me.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I think I read somewhere on here that the list you're referring to hairyhandedfool had been removed, and integrated in to individual restriction codes instead. It wouldn't surprise me if that coincided with the availability of restriction code information on the NRE website, but that bit's just conjecture on my part.

This appears to be the case, I can't find the list I was looking for.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

so I don't have a problem with the message 'off peak tickets are not valid'.

A member of the public unfamiliar with ticketing rules or unwilling to stand their ground would be denied travel with a valid ticket. Staff appear to take the notice as read. It needs the word 'usually' in there.

 

[Greenback]

Basically, the evening restrictions from Paddington a re a mess. This is largely due to the history of Thames Trains and FGW being combined into one franchise. With a few exceptions, FGW barred off peak tickets on their HST/fast services between various times in the afternoon and early evening (seemed to change regularly from what I can recall).

But of course this never applied to journeys such as Reading to Norwich, which I made regularly in the mid 1990's, where the restrictions applied to and from Liverpool Street. Yet the culture within FGW at the time was still one that regarded the fast trains between London and Reading as banned to any passenger who held one of the old Supersaver or Saver tickets. I used to carry one of the little restriction booklets that could be found at Reading station in order to show any member of staff who had difficulties - perhaps people ar ehappier to accept an official, printed document as being correct compared to a screen, or print out?

Late ron I began working in the ticket office at Reading. I was well aware of the restrictions as I had previously travelled regularly from the station. Yet I was disappointed with how many of my colleagues believed, mistakenly, in the idea of a blanket ban that still seems prevalent today.

I certainly find it very disappointing that, some 15 years on from my first day in the ticket office, things appear to have got worse rather than better. My own view is that either the correct training is not being provided to barrier and ticket office staff (it was veyr poor in my day), or that the staff are so used to seeing the screen messages about off peak tickets not being valid, that this sort of seeps into the consciousness and they begin to believe that it must be correct to enforce what the screens say!

It is certainly a problem that needs addressing, but since the issue has not been rectified in almost twenty years, I share the view that nothing is likely to get done any time soon.