Denied travel on ticket to Ebbsfleet via route that was permitted when booked

[Merseysider]

I think it is quite clear that there are two almost irreconcilable points of view on the use of erroneous or 'odd' contracts to travel; one that the passenger should always be allowed to travel with an itinerary or other proof of validity no matter how ludicrous the routeing (which I dont morally agree with but screw morals if it means a cheap day out ) and one view that if you push your luck too far, the toc is within their rights to refuse travel (which I disagree with from a loophole-using perspective but can understand the reasoning behind it).

For the record, I was unfamiliar with ticketing in the Kent area when making my journey, having never visited Kent before, and assumed via St Pancras was the normal way to make the journey. After all, as I can travel 90 miles for £2.85 within the GMPTE area, a price of £5.75 for Strood - London - Ebbsfleet which the itinerary said took the same amount of time as a £2.85 Middlewood - Appley Bridge or Woodsmoor - Orrell journey, seemed quite reasonable and not erroneous to me at all.

You can stop reading now, Southeastern.

 

[Elecman]

Isn't exploiting loopholes a case of Fare Avoidance rather than Fare Evasion ie perfectly legal and acceptable?

 

[yorkie]

Elecman - I firmly believe travelling on a valid ticket is legal and acceptable.

If you are travelling on a ticket that undercuts another fare, then I think we're being told it's best not to say or do anything to make anyone believe that you think it's any sort of 'error' or 'mistake'.

 

[Starmill]

Given the length of time that this route has been valid, and the number of times certain passengers have used the tickets and the fact Southeastern have clearly know nabout it for some time and chosen not to do anything about it, I don't see a whole lot of evidence for it being an error.

Find me the 'fraud' in that.

In fact the ticket is routed 'Plus High Speed', no? So why would it be routed like that rather than 'Not Via London' if travel in this way weren't allowed? It doesn't at all look erroneous to me. All of this talk of frauds is mystifying, I can't see anyone having told any lies for their own gain.

 

[infobleep]

Given the length of time that this route has been valid, and the number of times certain passengers have used the tickets and the fact Southeastern have clearly know nabout it for some time and chosen not to do anything about it, I don't see a whole lot of evidence for it being an error.

Find me the 'fraud' in that.

In fact the ticket is routed 'Plus High Speed', no? So why would it be routed like that rather than 'Not Via London' if travel in this way weren't allowed? It doesn't at all look erroneous to me. All of this talk of frauds is mystifying, I can't see anyone having told any lies for their own gain.

DaveNewcastle was talking about other journeys and not the one that brought up this interesting discussion.

 

[MikeWh]

the ticket is routed 'Plus High Speed', no? So why would it be routed like that rather than 'Not Via London' if travel in this way weren't allowed?

It would be unusable if it wasn't routed plus high speed as Ebbsfleet is only on HS1.

 

[yorkie]

Although whether the branch is part of HS1 or not is perhaps debatable.

It does seem rather a misnomer if any part of Ebbsfleet (platforms 5/6) to Gravesend is considered to be part of HS1.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Isn't exploiting loopholes a case of Fare Avoidance rather than Fare Evasion ie perfectly legal and acceptable?

I know where DaveNewcastle is coming from, but I'd probably agree with you.

I do not see how it can be considered fraud to use a loophole or drafting mistake to your own advantage, so long as you do not attempt to hide what you are doing. If you ask the TOC whether ticket A is valid, and they say that it is, then you have drawn their attention to the "mistake" and have given them adequate opportunity to rectify it.

A better example of what DaveNewcastle is driving at was last summer's "special offer" from East Midlands Trains on some routes between Kent and South Yorkshire. Attempting to use that special offer without asking EMT first was potentially dishonest, but asking them for confirmation and receiving it was perfectly fine IMHO.

 

[MikeWh]

Although whether the branch is part of HS1 or not is perhaps debatable.

It does seem rather a misnomer if any part of Ebbsfleet (platforms 5/6) to Gravesend is considered to be part of HS1.

Well if HS1 is defined as the lines linking St Pancras International with the classic lines at just before Gravesend and Ashford, then it seems very appropriate to consider the branch as a part of it. Surely you're not suggesting that the speed restriction on the branch precludes it being called part of HS1. If you are, then at what point do you consider HS1 starts, because the steep curve into the first tunnel to Stratford can't possibly be part of it?

 

[thebigcheese]

I hope you haven't drawn the conclusion that I was attempting to make that claim!

Oh no, I was more trying to justify why my ticket would not fulfil such criteria.

An 'error' in this context is something which is abundantly clear as leading to an unintentional loss (the Ebbsfleet examples possibly have a historical reasoning to justify them as intentional) but if, within a series of local point-to-point fares offered at around £5 - £20, was one with a published routing via somewhere a few hundred miles away, I think we could reasonably consider that to be 'an error', and that anyone using it for travel those few hundred additional miles was exploiting that error.

I suppose some advance fares would be considered very cheap to some people so what would be the test for ensuring that the price was indeed intentional? (or course comparing apples and oranges but at what point would the line be drawn between 'that's good value' and 'clearly a mistake' - would the situation be different depending on the assumed knowledge of the purchaser?)


I would say that this has brought up some very interesting issues - it's always fascinating to see how adaptable the law is with regards to applying (dare I say it) common sense to contractual issues.

It would be unusable if it wasn't routed plus high speed as Ebbsfleet is only on HS1.

My ticket is actually routed 'Any Permitted'...in fact the SET website states "Tickets that are not valid on the high speed route specifically state ‘Not Valid on HS1’"

 

[WelshBluebird]

I am sorry, how on earth is any normal person expected to know if a permitted route (shown as an itinerary on the "the definitive source of customer information for all passenger rail services on the National Rail network in England, Wales and Scotland") is an error or not? Surely if it is shown as a permitted route, then it is valid? Regardless of if it is "taking advantage" or not. If the rail industry cannot be bothered to ensure their "definitive source" is correct, then I am sorry but they only have themselves to blame.

If any company did decide to try to take someone to court for fraud for trying to use an itinerary shown on the rail industry's own website, then I'd hope it would be thrown out of court right away and the company reprimanded for wasting the courts time.

It is absolutely disgusting that this is even a debate. It certainly shows a lot about how some in the industry view passengers.

 

[infobleep]

I know where DaveNewcastle is coming from, but I'd probably agree with you.

I do not see how it can be considered fraud to use a loophole or drafting mistake to your own advantage, so long as you do not attempt to hide what you are doing. If you ask the TOC whether ticket A is valid, and they say that it is, then you have drawn their attention to the "mistake" and have given them adequate opportunity to rectify it.

A better example of what DaveNewcastle is driving at was last summer's "special offer" from East Midlands Trains on some routes between Kent and South Yorkshire. Attempting to use that special offer without asking EMT first was potentially dishonest, but asking them for confirmation and receiving it was perfectly fine IMHO.

What if you don't ask them if it is OK?

I've not, as far as I am aware, used booking system errors to travel cheaper. I have in the past used the routing guide to my advantage. For example on a trip to Bath I saved money by using the routing guide and related documents.

 

[andykn]

Elecman - I firmly believe travelling on a valid ticket is legal and acceptable.

If you are travelling on a ticket that undercuts another fare, then I think we're being told it's best not to say or do anything to make anyone believe that you think it's any sort of 'error' or 'mistake'.

Maybe it's what software companies often refer to as a "Feature"

 

[island]

Although whether the branch is part of HS1 or not is perhaps debatable.

It does seem rather a misnomer if any part of Ebbsfleet (platforms 5/6) to Gravesend is considered to be part of HS1.

Any tickets not routed 131 PLUS HIGH SPEED seem to be rejected by ticket barriers at Ebbsfleet.

 

[thebigcheese]

E-mail just received from SET:

Thank you for your web form dated 11 April 2015.

I'm sorry to hear of the problems you experienced when travelling with us. I can certainly appreciate any frustration and inconvenience caused.

Unfortunately, this does seem to be a complicated fare. Please be assured, myself and our fares department are investigating the routing on your ticket. Once I receive further information, I will be able to update you accordingly.

Thank you for your patience on this matter and again, my apologies for any inconvenience caused.

 

[Merseysider]

I received an email from SE asking me to forward them the booking confirmation they sent me with my purchase.

What annoys me is that SE appear quite emailphobic. They don't have a public email address anywhere on their website, NRE doesn't supply one, and they request all queries be made through their web form. And when I replied to their email, they sent one back:

This email has been automatically sent to you by Southeastern customer services. Please don’t ‘reply’ or send emails directly to this email address as you will not receive a response.

If you have any further questions or comments that you’d like to pass to us then can call us 0845 000 2222 (24 hours a day except Christmas day) or send us an email webform http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/about_us/contact-us/

Thank you

Why make life harder? :roll:

 

[Deerfold]

I received an email from SE asking me to forward them the booking confirmation they sent me with my purchase.

What annoys me is that SE appear quite emailphobic. They don't have a public email address anywhere on their website, NRE doesn't supply one, and they request all queries be made through their web form. And when I replied to their email, they sent one back:

Why make life harder? :roll:

Yes. I had a problem with a member of staff not accepting a valid pass at London Bridge - each time I contacted them I got back their anticipated response time - and the answers (with more questions for me) were just within these times with no ability to directly contact the person dealing with my complaint.

 

[thebigcheese]

Went through armed with a valid itinerary this evening and on return journey forced to buy new fare...not even an excess.

Apparently i'm “very intelligent and articulate” had I been to university they enquired - have to give them bonus points for that

 

[yorkie]

They are never going to stop. This has been going on for ages.

Report them to the DfT for franchise breaches, the ORR for breaching consumer laws, Passenger Focus, seek redress in the small claims court, and get your MP involved.

Perhaps we can get the press involved too? Anyone have any contacts? I've sent a PM to someone from Which? but it would be better for someone to do a video of this sort of thing going on. Panorama would be good
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

E-mail just received from SET:

Ha. What they meant was:

Oh damn, we'll have to spend time looking at your web form dated 11 April 2015.

I'm glad to hear of the problems you experienced when travelling with us. I can certainly appreciate the actions of my staff, who are doing what I've been telling them to do, consistently, for years.

Unfortunately, you seem to have found a fare that we do not want to be valid and therefore won't accept. Please be assured, myself and our fares department are going to be altering the routing on your ticket to reduce it's validity. Once I receive further information, I will be able to change it and inform you your tickets are no longer valid.

We are not sorry for any inconvenience caused, and to demonstrate this, I will be instructing my staff to continue ignoring the NRCoC, Routeing Guide and contract law, and they will be charging any passengers who use tickets we do not like.
​

 

[Coolzac]

Ha. What they meant was:

Oh damn, we'll have to spend time looking at your web form dated 11 April 2015.

I'm glad to hear of the problems you experienced when travelling with us. I can certainly appreciate the actions of my staff, who are doing what I've been telling them to do, consistently, for years.

Unfortunately, you seem to have found a fare that we do not want to be valid and therefore won't accept. Please be assured, myself and our fares department are going to be altering the routing on your ticket to reduce it's validity. Once I receive further information, I will be able to change it and inform you your tickets are no longer valid.

We are not sorry for any inconvenience caused, and to demonstrate this, I will be instructing my staff to continue ignoring the NRCoC, Routeing Guide and contract law, and they will be charging any passengers who use tickets we do not like.
​

Love it! Had a good laugh at that post, couldn't have put it better!

 

[infobleep]

I don't travel through the locations concerned but I'd love to see a video of such an exchange. Especially if they start asking about university degrees. What's that got to do with travelling? Might have me in stitches.

There would probably be an enquiry, the member of staff perhaps lose their job and things carry on as before.

A friend once complained to a member of staff at Clapham Junction because we missed a train late at night due to an incorrect timetable being published. The member of staff just had to listen because although my friend was not happy, he so polite whilst he complained.

SET do seem to be bad.

 

[Tetchytyke]

To be fair, southern, London Midland and Thameslink are all just as bad

 

[Merseysider]

SET do seem to be bad.

Well you know what they say about monkeys and typewriters, maybe in another 50 years they'll stumble across someone who can actually do their effing job

 

[embers25]

Any tickets not routed 131 PLUS HIGH SPEED seem to be rejected by ticket barriers at Ebbsfleet.

My Woking to Gravesend ticket is rejected at St Pancras, Stratford Int and Ebbsfleet!!

 

[Clip]

They are never going to stop. This has been going on for ages.

Report them to the DfT for franchise breaches, the ORR for breaching consumer laws, Passenger Focus, seek redress in the small claims court, and get your MP involved.

Perhaps we can get the press involved too? Anyone have any contacts? I've sent a PM to someone from Which? but it would be better for someone to do a video of this sort of thing going on. Panorama would be good

yorkie,

please don't take this as a personal attack on you - its not.

However you keep asking others to take up the baton for these sports of issues to ensure that TOCs stick to what they have agreed to do with regards to ticketing/routing and such.

You run a forum here with near 30,000 registered members and regularly has about 1000 people viewing it at a time. You have mentioned before about your contacts in ATOC and I'm sure others on here have contacts in the press also. In fact you have members here like JakeF who is bang on these changes and has acted upon seeing stuff via FOI requests - the help is there to make sure TOCs don't do things underhandedly


Why are you asking others to do this - with your membership and readership here you could take up the baton of forcing the TOCs to do what they should be doing - people would help you - and I have no doubt that the Rail press would latch on to it pretty quickly and give it coverage and I dare say a bit of help to your cause so that you could enforce change.

Yet I still wonder why you always want someone else to do this - what is preventing you from starting this by using your forum and its membership(where allowed as those who work with TOCs may not be allowed if they are already known on here) ??

Surely to enact and get the change you want it is better to start the ball rolling with yourself?

 

[yorkie]

Clip - I am not sure what you expect me to do! It really needs as many people as possible to complain to the relevant people/authorities. All I can do is encourage people to do that.

I've already tried using my contact at ATOC, who is very helpful, but if Southeastern won't even listen to him, then it's going to take something drastic for them to listen.

 

[infobleep]

People can only complain if they have been unfairly treated or affected. I guess someone could start a petition and present it once the next parliament is in sitting.

 

[talltim]

Went through armed with a valid itinerary this evening and on return journey forced to buy new fare...not even an excess.

Apparently i'm “very intelligent and articulate” had I been to university they enquired - have to give them bonus points for that

What was their reasoning?

 

[thebigcheese]

Didn't really give a reason - just "come on, you know it's not valid" and "we're not going to let you through" peppered with mild laughter. A recording wouldn't have been a bad idea actually ...

 

[Clip]

Clip - I am not sure what you expect me to do! It really needs as many people as possible to complain to the relevant people/authorities. All I can do is encourage people to do that.

I've already tried using my contact at ATOC, who is very helpful, but if Southeastern won't even listen to him, then it's going to take something drastic for them to listen.

Im not expecting you to do anything really but you keep imploring others to do such a thing.

If you want you really could start a pressure group of your own on here to force ATOC and the TOCs to play ball. You really could. And given yours and others tenacity with ticketing you could really force their arm.

Surely that's better then just complaining that there is no ombudsman with any power to force the TOCs to do something.