Derailment at Kirkby (Merseyside) - 13/03/2021

[Trackman]

Definitely CCTV. The camera didn't move at all and it's fair to say most people would have made some movement if they had witnessed that.

You can see the computer monitor in the footage.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can see the computer monitor in the footage.

Suspect someone might be in a bit of bother over that, then...

 

[the sniper]

God bless the booking offices and all who reside in them of an evening...?

 

[507 001]

My calculation as follows...

Three carriage lengths = 3 x 20 metres = 60 metres.

If they pass a fixed point in 5 seconds, that's 12 x 60 = 720 metres a minute.

Or approximately 43 kph, which is about 26 mph.

All approximately, of course.

That would make sense considering the leaked NR logs stating it entered the platform at 30.

 

[Vespa]

I was thinking 30 mph too, it was going a fair welly by the looks of it.

 

[Mcq]

Twitter page has been pulled - anyone got it?

 

[syorksdeano]

I've just seen the video. Christ it was going at some speed.

Least noone was injured but the driver will definitely need new undercrackers on

 

[James268]

Twitter page has been pulled - anyone got it?

Just search Kirby and set it to latest, scroll til one pops up.

It will come and go on different pages so any link posted will be gone in a matter of time anyway.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I was thinking 30 mph too, it was going a fair welly by the looks of it.

Just had another look. Reckon that's about spot on.

First two carriages pass a fixed point (i.e. the near to overhanging lamp stanchion) in 3 seconds.

My revised calculation as follows...

Two carriage lengths = 2 x 20 metres = 40 metres.

If they pass the fixed point in 3 seconds, that's 20 x 40 = 800 metres a minute.

Or approximately 48 kph, which is indeed about 30 mph.

All still approximately, of course.

 

[yorkie]

Just search Kirby and set it to latest, scroll til one pops up.

It will come and go on different pages so any link posted will be gone in a matter of time anyway.

Twitter page has been pulled - anyone got it?

I see it's gone from the original link but it's been re-uploaded; it's a game of cat & mouse out there.

 

[WatcherZero]

When it hits the concrete sparks fly out to the right as you would expect but a few frames later there seems to be a large explosion thats only captured for a frame or two.

 

[LowLevel]

When it hits the concrete sparks fly out to the right as you would expect but a few frames later there seems to be a large explosion thats only captured for a frame or two.

I imagine that will be the 3rd rail earthing during the derailment which will have blown the breakers.

Well, whoever was daft enough to leak that is most unlikely to still be employed before long, I would imagine!

 

[Grumpy Git]

When it hits the concrete sparks fly out to the right as you would expect but a few frames later there seems to be a large explosion thats only captured for a frame or two.

I think that is when the buffer stop goes bang as it gets tangled up in the shoe gear?

 

[philthetube]

To be fair, I can't remember any "brown trousers" moments that have ended well either!

My brown trouser moment didn't end badly, no damage and not much delay, I just thought I would end up dead as I hit a tree in the dark, but it turned out the tree wasn't half the size I thought it was.

 

[Spartacus]

The other option would presumably be to reverse at southport and sandhills, this would avoid the need to take a diesel loco into the tunnels.

Not those tunnels, the one on the Bootle branch to the docks. Reverse at Bootle Jn, reverse at Sandhills. The problem is getting someone at short notice to conduct it on the Merseyrail lines to Kirkby.

 

[357]

Whilst there aren't any at quite the same speed, this video could give some ideas as to how a more modern buffer could have changed the outcome - IMO it's quite possible the train would not have derailed and almost certain there would not have been the same level of damage

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Certainly interesting but nowhere near the impact speed of the incident at Kirkby on Saturday evening, IMHO.

If I correctly recall, the kinetic energy of a moving object is proportionate to the square of its speed/velocity, so if a given mass is moving three times faster (30 mph vs 10 mph) it will have nine times as much energy to dissipate.

(30 mph vs 5 mph would have had 36 times more kinetic energy!)

An 'aggravating' factor at Kirkby will have been the near proximity of the buffer stop to the (solid?) walkway connecting platforms one and two, which must have surely have deflected the Merseyrail from its initial forward direction, and thus almost certainly derailed it.

Possibly just as well, also, that the underbridge was sufficiently wide (was the line through Kirkby once double track, back in the day?) that the train didn't stuff into the bridge abutments.

Anyone have a similar or contrary opinion on all this?

 

[507 001]

Certainly interesting but nowhere near the impact speed of the incident at Kirkby on Saturday evening, IMHO.

If I correctly recall, the kinetic energy of a moving object is proportionate to the square of its speed/velocity, so if a given mass is moving three times faster (30 mph vs 10 mph) it will have nine times as much energy to dissipate.

(30 mph vs 5 mph would have had 36 times more kinetic energy!)

An 'aggravating' factor at Kirkby will have been the near proximity of the buffer stop to the (solid?) walkway connecting platforms one and two, which must have surely have deflected the Merseyrail from its initial forward direction, and thus almost certainly derailed it.

Possibly just as well, also, that the underbridge was sufficiently wide (was the line through Kirkby once double track, back in the day?) that the train didn't stuff into the bridge abutments.

Anyone have a similar or contrary opinion on all this?

The track ends a fair way before you get to the walkway. It wasn’t derailed by the block.
It was double track up to around 1976.
It’s probably for the best that it was deflected as otherwise there’s the potential for a head on with a Northern train on the other side.

 

[Domh245]

If I correctly recall, the kinetic energy of a moving object is proportionate to the square of its speed/velocity, so if a given mass is moving three times faster (30 mph vs 10 mph) it will have nine times as much energy to dissipate.

(30 mph vs 5 mph would have had 36 times more kinetic energy!)

You're absolutely right about Kinetic energy - Ke=1/2*M*v^2. Taking the estimated 30mph speed, and the weight of a double 507 consist, the kinetic energy before impact would have been somewhere around 19,000 kJ. Some of that will dissipate internally through the train itself (couplers, etc) but that's still asking an awful lot of the buffers to dissipate, though there are some rated high enough. I would imagine however that those are mostly aimed at lower speed, higher mass impacts

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The track ends a fair way before you get to the walkway. It wasn’t derailed by the block.
It was double track up to around 1976.
It’s probably for the best that it was deflected as otherwise there’s the potential for a head on with a Northern train on the other side.

The photo that you posted back in post #2 at the top of this thread would seem to suggest otherwise.

Bear in mind also that the Merseyrail unit in the unauthorised video clip looks to have continued for maybe two or three full carriage lengths (= 40 to 60 metres?) after initially taking out the buffer stop.

Agree your comment, though, about the possibility of what might have happened if there had been an hourly Northern train stood over on platform 2 at the same time.

Also, you are correct that the walkway wouldn't have derailed the Merseyrail train. That effectively happened as soon as the train ran out of track after stuffing through the buffer stop on platform 1.

Reckon though that the walkway block did possibly partially further deflect / slew the train from its initial straight line forward momentum into Kirkby station.

All-in-all, could have been a lot worse!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The older photo above shows the train in nearly exactly the same position despite there being no walkway block back then?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

This photo, previously posted in post #2 by @507 001 ...

https://www.railforums.co.uk/attachments/a5e6b80b-4403-49e4-a423-c95254e7684a-jpeg.92386/

 

[357]

Certainly interesting but nowhere near the impact speed of the incident at Kirkby on Saturday evening, IMHO.

Yes, while there are some rapid impacts in that video none are 30mph, my point was the buffer on Saturday seems to have been demolished like it was made from matchsticks.

On the railway we always have multiple safety systems. In an ideal situation - the train would have not cleared signals on approach to the platform (assuming there is some sort of approach control here?) or set off some racks so it was already slowing down when it hit the buffers.

I think the people worrying about a Northern train in the other platform are underestimating the size of that concrete block, for me the biggest concern would be the fact that there could have been people walking there at the moment of impact

 

[507 001]

The older photo above shows the train in nearly exactly the same position despite there being no walkway block back then?

The walkway was widened at some point during the mid 90s. I think it was actually after the previous incident.

This photo, previously posted in post #2 by @507 001 ...

https://www.railforums.co.uk/attachments/a5e6b80b-4403-49e4-a423-c95254e7684a-jpeg.92386/

The track ends immediately after the buffer stop. There is no overrun provided in the rear of it. The photo makes the buffer stop look closer to the block than it actually is, I’d say it’s actually about half a 507 carriage length.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The walkway was widened at some point during the mid 90s. I think it was actually after the previous incident.

The photo of the previous incident shown above suggests this is correct. I guess it had to be as previously it wasn't wide enough under the bridge for a wheelchair to pass safely, which would mean the Manchester train service was not accessible. However, as I mentioned above, that previous incident photo shows a 50x in the same position as this time, which suggests that the block didn't deflect it as such.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The track ends immediately after the buffer stop. There is no overrun provided in the rear of it. The photo makes the buffer stop look closer to the block than it actually is, I’d say it’s actually about half a 507 carriage length.

I concur. The point was that the Merseyrail unit on Saturday continued for some two or three carriage lengths, this after ploughing through the buffer stop, before coming to a halt, so the walkway block must have been a factor in the mechanics of what happened.

 

[507 001]

The photo of the previous incident shown above suggests this is correct. I guess it had to be as previously it wasn't wide enough under the bridge for a wheelchair to pass safely, which would mean the Manchester train service was not accessible. However, as I mentioned above, that previous incident photo shows a 50x in the same position as this time, which suggests that the block didn't deflect it as such.

I remember it being widened but wouldn’t be able to tell exactly when. Now I was only 5 when the last incident happened, but I’m fairly certain that the walkway originally did intrude into the formation ever so slightly, just not as much as it does now.

Fully get what you’re saying though, it’s really hard to tell from the photo of the 80s incident. Such is the law of sod, I can’t find any photos of the station in the 80s despite them being ten a penny normally

I concur. The point was that the Merseyrail unit on Saturday continued for some two or three carriage lengths, this after ploughing through the buffer stop, before coming to a halt, so the walkway block must have been a factor in the mechanics of what happened.

Agree entirely

 

[Winthorpe]

not found

Read post #278 for how to find it...

 

[Mcr Warrior]

not found

As @Winthorpe points out, the (presumably unauthorised - BTP not happy?!) footage is still available elsewhere...

For example...

https://twitter.com/IceGamer_/status/1371572043376906241?s=20

 

[F262YTJ]

Just read on another forum that 37800 has departed Lime Street for Kirkby about an hour ago.