Derailment at Paddington - 2017-08-20

[ValleyLines142]

Surprised they haven't closed the station and declared a 10 mile exclusion zone.

And where else do you propose every other train that has arrived today terminate?

 

[Llanigraham]

I don't think any of our rec calls have been text book, especially as they are the only type of calls that you only get to practice with when it's a live incident, unlike the old CSR that if you had a some willing drivers you could go through all the different scenarios.

Lucky you then. My LOM was incredibly strict over it, and was willing to downgrade you for the slightest "misdemeanor".

 

[Carlisle]

EMT had a 222 derail some years back, at the time they were having regular issues with false TMS alarms and so the Driver disregarded it. Eventually he had warnings going off for all manner of things, including numerous passenger alarms, and finally opted to stop the train. The distance travelled while derailed was quite vast! A Driver will know if a warning or particular selection of warnings are routine issues, or something more concerning.

Why couldn't the guard intervene in that case?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Lucky you then. My LOM was incredibly strict over it, and was willing to downgrade you for the slightest "misdemeanor".

What's LOM short for? Local Operating Manager? What are they responsible for?

 

[TimboM]

And where else do you propose every other train that has arrived today terminate?

Mag_seven was being sarcastic I think....

 

[BestWestern]

Surely the driver would have noticed the jolt when it happened and stopped anyway.
Edit: by jolt I mean train suddenly not accelerating.

HSTs can jolt lots when moving off, performance is highly variable, and the rear power car is ten vehicles away. The Driver would have been unaware until the power car was sufficiently seriously enough derailed to have either severed the brake or air lines, or have effectively become wedged against something.

 

[Mugby]

Surprised they haven't closed the station and declared a 10 mile exclusion zone.

Indeed - and called in the drugs squad, declared the whole of Paddington a crime scene and convened an emergency meeting of senior managers to decide how they will cover their own backsides!

 

[Sunset route]

Lucky you then. My LOM was incredibly strict over it, and was willing to downgrade you for the slightest "misdemeanor".

Bad coms will get you marked down and put on an action plan, but it's a bit harsh if the first time you take a rec call "ever" it is because some women has jumped in front of a train will her child in a push chair, no theoretical training is going to prepare you for that and come out with perfect coms with half a dozen drivers butting in because they have forgotten their training as well.

The hardest part of any of the rec calls that have come into my signalling centre is to silence the non effected drivers so you can actually talk to to the driver involved. I know as the software patches come through they are slowly locking everyone out to just listening, apart from the lead signaller and the driver who sends a rec call. But receive one in any of the London area boxes and it's a complete and bloody mess to start with so many drivers involved on parallel, adjacent, diverging, converging routes on the lines that criss cross London.

 

[GW43125]

True, if the guard and platform staff are aware at the same time. There are circumstances where the platform staff may spot the problem before a guard would be aware.

Upside of droplight windows: platform staff see something, raise arms in the air at the TM who then responds to this by giving one on the bell and/or pulling a passcomm.

 

[spark001uk]

Upside of droplight windows: platform staff see something, raise arms in the air at the TM who then responds to this by giving one on the bell and/or pulling a passcomm.

Indeed. imagine the same scenario as today, with an 800 for example. No droplight, so TM would not be able to see a mishap directly, neither see platform staff alerting them of such. And if it had been DOO then there wouldn't even have been a TM.

 

[furlong]

Jamie Squibbs uploaded some photos at http://www.jamiesquibbs.com/paddington-derailment.html

 

[Chris M]

I spent about 5 hours watching the rerailing operation this evening and chatting to some of the staff.
All references to left, right, leading and trailing below are relative to the train as it was when departing Paddington. Power car refers to the one that derailed unless clearly noted otherwise.

When it came to rest the leading bogie of the power car had pivoted to the left, such that the leading left wheel was derailed to the six foot side of the left rail and the leading right rail was to the four-foot side of the right rail. All other wheels on the left side of the power car did not derail. The rear right wheel of the trailing bogie was derailed to the four-foot side of the right rail. I was only able to observe from the platform 1 side so I could not see the position of the other two wheels, but based on observations of the actions of the rerailing crew, the trailing right wheel of the leading bogie was also derailed, almost certainly to the four foot. Based on the actions of the staff and photos I've seen from right after the derailment occurred, I believe it likely that the leading right wheel of the trailing bogie was also derailed. If it did derail it did so to the four foot.

The immediate cause of the derailment of the trailing three axles (assuming all derailed) was gauge spread. It is likely that this is also responsible for the derailment of the first axle, but it is not impossible for the gauge spread to be the consequence of the leading axle derailing. I do not know in which order the axles derailed.

The track here is supported by chairs on longitudinal timber bearers. Approximately where (or very shortly ahead of where) the inner (leading on departure) bogie of the power car came to a stand on arrival on the previous journey, the timber bearer supporting the right (platform side) rail gave way. It is believed (but not proven) that this was the or at least a causal factor. All the investigation activity was focused on the track, and almost all around the point of the bearer damage.

The unit travelled a distance of approximately 50 chairs from start to final stop. At least two, possibly four wheels ran on top of the clips securing the right hand rail in the chairs and/or the bolts securing the chairs to the bearers. From a point approximately 10 chairs after the point of the obvious bearer collapse to where the unit came to a stand most (but not all) clips were missing and some of the bolts were clearly damaged. There was no obvious track damage at all between the point of the bearer damage and the buffers, so it seems very unlikely any wheels ran in the four foot before this point. A section at least of platform 2 will be relaid. Preparation for this was starting when I left around 11pm, but I don't know how long it will take. One of the rerailing crew did not think it would be completed overnight.
The break pipe was undamaged and did not separate. The rear power car was detached and the rest of the train moved about half a coach length forwards for ease of access to the derailed leading bogie by the rerailing crew, but once rerailed the train was connected up again and appeared to pass a break test. The power car did not suffer any significant damage that was apparent to me or to those who inspected it, and after rerailing it was dragged to the depot (presumably Old Oak Common) at slow speed where it would undergo a full exam. No wheel skates were required.

It was reported that when the unit derailed it did so with a very loud bang. I was not there to hear it but my supposition is that this was the sound of one of more wheels dropping off the rail into the four foot. It was also reported that the guard gave the signal to stop but it was sufficiently loud that the driver /might/ have been able to hear it. Whether they did or not is unknown to me.

I took lots of photographs but have not had a chance to download them yet.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

The immediate cause of the derailment of the trailing three axles (assuming all derailed) was gauge spread. It is likely that this is also responsible for the derailment of the first axle, but it is not impossible for the gauge spread to be the consequence of the leading axle derailing. I do not know in which order the axles derailed.

The track here is supported by chairs on longitudinal timber bearers. Approximately where (or very shortly ahead of where) the inner (leading on departure) bogie of the power car came to a stand on arrival on the previous journey, the timber bearer supporting the right (platform side) rail gave way. It is believed (but not proven) that this was the or at least a causal factor. All the investigation activity was focused on the track, and almost all around the point of the bearer damage.

How many years ago was the track last replaced at Paddington?

 

[Darbs]

I'm not sure when the track was last relaid in Paddington, however age of track shouldn't be a big issue if the correct maintenance standards are adhered to.

 

[Mag_seven]

Mag_seven was being sarcastic I think....

Indeed I was Tim.

 

[Mag_seven]

And where else do you propose every other train that has arrived today terminate?

Hi Dan, I was being sarcastic but not without reason - there have been incidents in the past where the authorities have gone a little OTT after a derailment.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Hi Dan, I was being sarcastic but not without reason - there have been incidents in the past where the authorities have gone a little OTT after a derailment.

Mag_seven was being sarcastic I think....

I was thinking, but couldn't really tell!

 

[Johncleesefan]

Bad coms will get you marked down and put on an action plan, but it's a bit harsh if the first time you take a rec call "ever" it is because some women has jumped in front of a train will her child in a push chair, no theoretical training is going to prepare you for that and come out with perfect coms with half a dozen drivers butting in because they have forgotten their training as well.

The hardest part of any of the rec calls that have come into my signalling centre is to silence the non effected drivers so you can actually talk to to the driver involved. I know as the software patches come through they are slowly locking everyone out to just listening, apart from the lead signaller and the driver who sends a rec call. But receive one in any of the London area boxes and it's a complete and bloody mess to start with so many drivers involved on parallel, adjacent, diverging, converging routes on the lines that criss cross London.

Indeed, and the only practice you have of using the rec call facility is in a simulator environment. Whilst this should emulate a real experience as close as possible it can be hard to imagine using it for real the same way.
As long as you follow the guidelines to the best of your ability and give the relevant information as quickly as possible their wouldn't be a punishment for it.

I received a rec last year and after dumping the thing in emergency I listened to the full broadcast. Afterwards I still wanted clarification that I was ok to move again

 

[380101]

"This is a Railway Emergency Call, stop all traffic Paddington Station "
Siggie then hits the GSM-R Red Button.....Job Stopped.

In fact the REC button would be almost fully pressed by the siggie on the first 3 words !

The REC will stop everything in and around the station for some distance

When we, as drivers, press the red emergency button on GSM-R it automatically broadcasts a stop message to all other trains within the GSM-R cell - no need for the the signaller to send any emergency call broadcasts. All trains within approx. 5km radius of the affected train receive the emergency stop message.

 

[ComUtoR]

When we, as drivers, press the red emergency button on GSM-R it automatically broadcasts a stop message to all other trains within the GSM-R cell - no need for the the signaller to send any emergency call broadcasts. All trains within approx. 5km radius of the affected train receive the emergency stop message.

I thought it was your cell + adjacent. 18km potential radius ?

On a couple of points about comms. First. Totally agree about the end of a REC. You still want that confirmation. Mainly because moving off after a emergency stop doesn't feel natural. Its still new so it will get better/easier. ITs also because the calls are very confusing. In the metro area they are truly a real mess. If the do block out the calls to listen only it will be game changing.

On bad comms.... Signaller called me a dummy the other day

On the derailment. I've always wondered what the Driver experiences. Pulling away from a station is low speed so why don't Drivers feel the unit dragging. The Drivers I've spoken with about their derailments absolutely knew when the unit hit the dirt. Maybe they were just lucky.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

When we, as drivers, press the red emergency button on GSM-R it automatically broadcasts a stop message to all other trains within the GSM-R cell - no need for the the signaller to send any emergency call broadcasts. All trains within approx. 5km radius of the affected train receive the emergency stop message.

Will trains on unconnected routes (eg GWML out of Paddington and SWML out of Waterloo be on different frequencies to prevent an e-stop broadcast message on 1 causing everything to stop on the other one when there'll be no danger on the other? I dread to think about the chaos if litterally every single last train within a 5km radius one one in London stopping

 

[contrad!ction]

I thought it was your cell + adjacent. 18km potential radius ?

This is what we've been told our end but it seems very hit and miss as to the actual distance.

GSM-R has it's advantages but from a signaller's perspective (well, mine...) I'd love to be able to press a button and you just got a 'STOP' message with an audible alarm (i.e CSR-like) rather than having to launch into the whole spiel verbally. The problem then is you'd get all the drivers calling in at once wondering what's going on (understandably!) which would then engulf the GSM-R terminal with calls, which it doesn't seem to like very much...

And those berth triggered messages/cautions...

Just out of interest - do your company instructions say for you to stop immediately on receipt of a REC call? (I've never got a clear answer...)

Will trains on unconnected routes (eg GWML out of Paddington and SWML out of Waterloo be on different frequencies to prevent an e-stop broadcast message on 1 causing everything to stop on the other one when there'll be no danger on the other?

The short answer is no! They are working to 'unpick' the cells but there's so many and they're so close together it's a very difficult job.

 

[ComUtoR]

This is what we've been told our end but it seems very hit and miss as to the actual distance.

I think the by the book answer is each cell is 6km (with a small overlap) and that gives the 18km distance. I think in reality each cell differs in size. Maybe one of the nice forumites who works with GSMR could confirm the technicalities

Just out of interest - do your company instructions say for you to stop immediately on receipt of a REC call? (I've never got a clear answer...)

Absolutely stop 100%.

 

[spark001uk]

I doubt the driver would have felt the wheels come off from right up the other end, but I'm wondering, what (if any) alarms / anomalies could potentially have come to his attention in the cab to tell him the other PC had gone to ground?

Also while we're at it with alarms, can someone solve a mystery for me - what on earth is that 4-tone fanfare at Southern stations? I hear it all the time when I'm on their metals!

 

[Sunset route]

This is what we've been told our end but it seems very hit and miss as to the actual distance.

GSM-R has it's advantages but from a signaller's perspective (well, mine...) I'd love to be able to press a button and you just got a 'STOP' message with an audible alarm (i.e CSR-like) rather than having to launch into the whole spiel verbally. The problem then is you'd get all the drivers calling in at once wondering what's going on (understandably!) which would then engulf the GSM-R terminal with calls, which it doesn't seem to like very much...

And those berth triggered messages/cautions...

Just out of interest - do your company instructions say for you to stop immediately on receipt of a REC call? (I've never got a clear answer...)



The short answer is no! They are working to 'unpick' the cells but there's so many and they're so close together it's a very difficult job.

Absolutely agree about the stop command, I used to love the simplicity of the the "stop command" i.e. One train or the "general stop command" i.e. All trains that the CSR offered, it left the signaller to move onto protecting the line instead of flaffing about trying to remember rec call protocol.

 

[SPADTrap]

I thought it was your cell + adjacent. 18km potential radius ?

On a couple of points about comms. First. Totally agree about the end of a REC. You still want that confirmation. Mainly because moving off after a emergency stop doesn't feel natural. Its still new so it will get better/easier. ITs also because the calls are very confusing. In the metro area they are truly a real mess. If the do block out the calls to listen only it will be game changing.

On bad comms.... Signaller called me a dummy the other day

On the derailment. I've always wondered what the Driver experiences. Pulling away from a station is low speed so why don't Drivers feel the unit dragging. The Drivers I've spoken with about their derailments absolutely knew when the unit hit the dirt. Maybe they were just lucky.

A unit is quite different to a HST though.

 

[sarahj]

I doubt the driver would have felt the wheels come off from right up the other end, but I'm wondering, what (if any) alarms / anomalies could potentially have come to his attention in the cab to tell him the other PC had gone to ground?

Also while we're at it with alarms, can someone solve a mystery for me - what on earth is that 4-tone fanfare at Southern stations? I hear it all the time when I'm on their metals!

Are to talking about the 'train about to leave' chime?

 

[QueensCurve]

Lots of tie bars.
Hasn't there been a gauge spread derailment at Paddington with a HEX before?

Ahh a combination of track defect and unit.

My immediate reaction was to suspect guage spreading.

 

[QueensCurve]

As an outsider, I'd expect that stations will be given Big Red Buttons™ to allow them to stop the job in an emergency without having to place a call to the signallers. Though, admittedly, that still involves a delay in getting the button pressed.

That is what was, if I remember rightly, recommended by the Hidden Inquiry [Clapham Junction double collition 1988] and is implemented by the stop all trains facility in GSM-R.

 

[QueensCurve]

Would the TM have immediate access to either an emergency stop button/handle or to the passcomm from where they'd be on the train to dispatch from Paddington?

What happened to the Guard's Valve?