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Derby-Bristol electrification 'in 10 to 15 years', says Transport Secretary

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Harbornite

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Just to be clear I was suggesting the trains from Bristol would use the existing line (electrified) and would then head over the Camp Hill line and a new viaduct connection into Curzon Street only about 1km long.


I was referring to the Camp Hill- Curzon street curve that you proposed as one that will not go ahead. Don't worry, your proposal and diagram were easy to understand. Anyway I am familiar with the area as I live in Birmingham.
 
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The Planner

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A XC CC unit from Bristol could enter Birmingham via Camp Hill and a new connection from the south across the Freightliner yards into Curzon Street terminus and couple up to the back of another CC or a captive unit in one of the long platforms. Then the full length consist could depart for Newcastle, Leeds Manchester etc via the appropriate leg of HS2. That could clear the Selly Oak line of long distance services, improving timings and performance whilst increasing capacity for local services.

That diagram is wrong, the HS2 route is below the Water Orton corridor and crosses over the classic lines at Duddeston Jn taking out the old Saltley PSB. Your yellow route would also have a ludicrous gradient to deal with, if you consider the level of St Andrews Jn and then getting it up and over to hit the HS2 viaduct that goes over the Cross City North line.
 

MarkyT

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I was referring to the Camp Hill- Curzon street curve that you proposed as one that will not go ahead.

Ever? As part of a simple Derby - Bristol electrification project to allow XC voyagers to be replaced by electrics and bi-modes, I agree the Camp Hill- Curzon Street link is not really relevant. Once HS2 is up and running along both E & W northern branches in the more distant future however, perhaps additional overlaid XC service patterns might be considered using HS2 infrastructure to exploit the speed and capacity of the HS slots, and as the classic XC route becomes more saturated. Thus it may be worth considering safegaurding such a link, perhaps incorporating some low cost passive consideration in the terminal throat design. Few networks remain entirely static in their configuration and I expect 'HSUK' to be no different in this respect although any changes may be particularly infrequent.
 

Class 170101

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Electrification is inevitable, like the closure of coal fired power stations, the only question will be the single track mileage that's completed each control period, but we've bought equipment, trained staff and have completed much of the hard work now.

We simply have to remove diesel powered trains, they're dirty and emit significant quantities of particulate matter, they're slow and heavy compared with electric stock, and we need to de-carbonise our public transport system.

Diesel trains are even more inefficient than power stations - another reason for electrification.

In what way? A link from HS2 to the conventional railway in the West Mids? That got canned long ago.

There wont be any extra links into Curzon St.

I remain to be convinced on that one. Stage 2(B) hasn't been signed off into law yet. It qould be my view that there must be capacity between Birmingham and Leeds / York for XC HS services simply because 18 trains from London per hour split three ways (Birmingham, North West and North East).
 

GRALISTAIR

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I am glad this project is definitely not just on the backburner. I am sure we will hear more in the next 18 months. Electrification RUS refresh, new HLOS etc. The timeline looks sensible and doable. You would have Derby done by then (2020ish), Bristol TM etc , already done to Bromsgrove etc -so quite few route kilometers will get converted with most difficult bits already done. Up to Sheffield so then would need a little infill Sheffield -Dony, York, Leeds etc. Assume that by 2030 Scotland will do Edinburgh- Aberdeen and you have a huge chunk of XC electrified. Makes total sense. Great candidate for 2017 HLOS with some rider that it will get started then and overlap into other CPs.
 

tbtc

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One of the big complaints about HS2's eastern arm is that trains won't serve the centre of Derby/ Nottingham/ Chesterfield/ Sheffield etc - so (without trying to rehash that argument) I think that there'll still be a similar frequency to today's four trains per hour from Birmingham to Derby (two to Nottingham, two to Sheffield) - which looks like it'll be a good enough frequency to justify electrification in the medium term.

MML electrification will mean the line from Derby to Nottingham and from Derby to Chesterfield/ Sheffield gets wired, which significantly improves the case for doing the Birmingham - Derby section.

Maybe by the time HS2 opens, the services will be 100mph ones that all stop at Tamworth and Burton, with new stations at places like Clay Cross, but still electrification will be needed.
 

NotATrainspott

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A few tens of kilometres of wires between the edge of the Birmingham suburban electrification and Derby really isn't going to be put off because of HS2. If anything, HS2 strengthens the case for wiring, as then the remaining passenger traffic will be shorter distance and so able to be wholly electrified sooner.

What counts as the limit of suburban electrification is also up for discussion. With the way that the line between suburban and regional services is being blurred, why couldn't electric commuter services stretch as far as Burton-on-Trent or Worcester or Leicester or Shrewsbury? London's economic strength is in no small part due to its exceptionally wide commuter catchment area. If Birmingham is to be halfway as successful in future, it'll need similarly good links to the surrounding regions of England. The only halfway efficient way to deliver these links is to electrify, and if you do this for all the major cities of GB there isn't really a vast amount of the rail network left unelectrified. Add on top of this the advantages for freight and long distance regional/InterCity services and I can see no reason why a future Treasury would not accept that reasonably total electrification is worthwhile.
 

XDM

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It's highly desirable to replace diesel with electric,but fast long electric trains are huge kW guzzlers. At the moment the UK is not committed to enough new baseload power stations to power our dreams,admirable though they are. Quick build gas turbine stations are ruled out for CO2 reasons.
 

NotATrainspott

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It's highly desirable to replace diesel with electric,but fast long electric trains are huge kW guzzlers. At the moment the UK is not committed to enough new baseload power stations to power our dreams,admirable though they are. Quick build gas turbine stations are ruled out for CO2 reasons.

Fast long diesel trains are huge diesel guzzlers. It would be more efficient to burn all that diesel in a power station and use it to power electric replacements than it would be to continue burning it underneath the trains.
 

The Planner

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I remain to be convinced on that one. Stage 2(B) hasn't been signed off into law yet. It qould be my view that there must be capacity between Birmingham and Leeds / York for XC HS services simply because 18 trains from London per hour split three ways (Birmingham, North West and North East).

Would bet cold hard cash on it not happening. There is no passve provision for it in the hybrid bill scheme. Coming along within 10 years of it opening to hack into it is unlikely at best.
 

Harbornite

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What counts as the limit of suburban electrification is also up for discussion. With the way that the line between suburban and regional services is being blurred, why couldn't electric commuter services stretch as far as Burton-on-Trent or Worcester or Leicester or Shrewsbury?


Some good points there, Shrewsbury- Wolverhampton seems like a good scheme but there would obviously have to be a major resignalling of Shrewsbury station.
 

edwin_m

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Hitachi's AT300 design is, in theory, HS2 CC compatible, in the same way as their Class 395 is HS1 compatible.

However while both trains can use HS infrastructure, neither is able to call at stations on HS routes, unless separate loop tracks with UK-sized platforms are also provided. There is currently no intention to provide these although I guess HS3 might introduce them at Manchester Airport. A true classic compatible, like the 373, needs some sort of moveable step arrangement to bridge across to the HS platforms which are further away and may be lower.
 
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DynamicSpirit

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I obviously didn't explain myself clearly enough. HS2 as currently proposed will have stations in central Birmingham, near Derby, near Sheffield and in the centre of Leeds, and HS2 trains from Birmingham will continue northwards on classic lines to Newcastle. So someone making a journey that both starts and finishes at a station served by HS2 trains will probably use the much faster HS2 service, as will some currently using XC to/from Derby and Sheffield depending on the relative convenience to them of the new stations.

However there are still plenty of passenger flows, including those to/from south of Birmingham, where people will still use the classic route because HS2 trains don't serve the station they need to use, or because they prefer the through service to a change of train. This is precisely the reason why I believe HS2 doesn't destroy the case for electrification of Derby-Bristol.

Ah yes, that makes more sense, thanks!
 

MarkyT

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A true classic compatible, like the 373, needs some sort of moveable step arrangement to bridge across to the HS platforms which are further away and may be lower.

True but not a major technical challenge today. A future batch of AT300 derivatives or similar for XC could incorporate moving step boards. Might be a good punt for a train leasing co to include them for future flexibility.
 

Philip Phlopp

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If this does happen would it be worth extending it down to Exeter St Davids?

That's the ultimate goal in the medium term, via both routes - SWML/WoE via Salisbury and the various GWR routes (Bath/Newbury to Westbury, Westbury to Taunton, Bristol (via Weston-Super-Mare) to Taunton, and Taunton to Exeter.

There's various add-on options to include in all of that.

The route to Exeter via the SWML/WoE is most likely to be completed first, to enable either cascade or more likely, based on the age of stock and timeframes, the withdrawal of the Class 158/Class 159 stock. I'd guess Exeter to Bristol via Weston-Super-Mare would then follow, with infill between Taunton to Newbury and Taunton to Bath happening last.
 

NotATrainspott

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Is Bristol-Weymouth likely to be an eventual follow-on option as well?

Is there any reason why it wouldn't be? The more you electrify, the more useful it is to continue the job. The only lines which might not be electrified are those which are operated by RETB signalling.
 

XDM

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All these proposals for electrifying left right & centre are great in principle, but in practice the last two governments have not planned for this increased need for non weather dependent power output. It's Government's fault but unless we restart coal or allow more gas fired stations we will not have the juice for these eminently sensible plans. Sensible bar Yeovil to Weymouth,where the passenger miles carried are mostly pitiful.
 

Harbornite

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The route to Exeter via the SWML/WoE is most likely to be completed first, to enable either cascade or more likely, based on the age of stock and timeframes, the withdrawal of the Class 158/Class 159 stock. I'd guess Exeter to Bristol via Weston-Super-Mare would then follow, with infill between Taunton to Newbury and Taunton to Bath happening last.

That would be good, it could mean more 158s for Arriva and the Rosco responsible for the arriva 158s already has experience in installing ertms equipment in these units for the Cambrian.
 

Philip Phlopp

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That would be good, it could mean more 158s for Arriva and the Rosco responsible for the arriva 158s already has experience in installing ertms equipment in these units for the Cambrian.

These units will be somewhere around 45 to 50 years old by the time electric units can run to Exeter, additional electrification works elsewhere. The likelihood of them being cascaded, certainly for more than just the odd year here or there, is very low.

There's a possibility the scheme could be accelerated, probably starting at the end of CP6 (with the Basingstoke to Salisbury portion) and then following on into CP7-CP8, if there's a determination to remove the diesel stock from Waterloo on emissions grounds.

Your best bet for additional stock is if the Chiltern Main Line is to be the target of a larger GWML type scheme fitting in with the Electric Spine works during CP6-CP7, but there's no easy fixes when it comes to releasing more DMU stock quickly through electrification. The first new electrification schemes are likely during the CP6 (2019-2024) control period and for most areas, the new works will be towards the end of that period, not the start.
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All these proposals for electrifying left right & centre are great in principle, but in practice the last two governments have not planned for this increased need for non weather dependent power output. It's Government's fault but unless we restart coal or allow more gas fired stations we will not have the juice for these eminently sensible plans. Sensible bar Yeovil to Weymouth,where the passenger miles carried are mostly pitiful.

There's plenty of time - none of the discussed schemes are going to be drawing a kW of power out of the National Grid any time in the next decade, and most are two decades away.

They're being discussed for planning purposes, so we can get signalling works done, drainage installed, structures cleared, immunisation sorted, rolling stock plans in place and indeed, to work out the power demands and generation requirements.
 

snowball

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There's plenty of time - none of the discussed schemes are going to be drawing a kW of power out of the National Grid any time in the next decade, and most are two decades away.

They're being discussed for planning purposes, so we can get signalling works done, drainage installed, structures cleared, immunisation sorted, rolling stock plans in place and indeed, to work out the power demands and generation requirements.

If we believe the Hendy updates, all currently committed electrifications will be complete by mid-CP6, so what will be getting done in the second half of CP6 and in CP7?
 

route:oxford

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Taking into consideration the various routing options and electrification in process. What will be the first possible route for an electric service to take between Derby & Bristol?

I'm guessing that Bristol-Didcot, Didcot-Milton Keynes (perhaps Bletchley) will be completed first.
 

Harbornite

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Taking into consideration the various routing options and electrification in process. What will be the first possible route for an electric service to take between Derby & Bristol?

I'm guessing that Bristol-Didcot, Didcot-Milton Keynes (perhaps Bletchley) will be completed first.

I was thinking of Bristol- Cheltenham- Bromsgrove- Birmingham- Tamworth- Derby.
 

Philip Phlopp

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If we believe the Hendy updates, all currently committed electrifications will be complete by mid-CP6, so what will be getting done in the second half of CP6 and in CP7?

CP6 and CP7 - work on Bristol to Derby via Birmingham, Dunblane to Dundee and Valley Lines, plus Electric Spine if it gets going again. Energisation for the majority won't be until later in CP7 though.
 

JohnElliott

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It would be amusing if the Brighton mainline (at least from Victoria to Stoats Nest) were to be converted back to overhead AC in time for the 100th anniversary of its AC->DC conversion.
 

Mikey C

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Is Bristol-Weymouth likely to be an eventual follow-on option as well?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-36557083

Noise, fumes and the "horrendous smell" of idling diesel trains are blighting the lives of people in a seaside town.
Residents of Princes Drive in Weymouth, whose gardens back on to the mainline to London Waterloo, said trains stop with their engines running for up to five hours on Saturdays.

Back on topic, as HS2 stops at neither Derby nor Nottingham, I can't see many people wanting to use HS2 to go to Birmingham.
 

quantinghome

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Back on topic, as HS2 stops at neither Derby nor Nottingham, I can't see many people wanting to use HS2 to go to Birmingham.

Current Journey times to Birmingham: 34 minutes from derby; 74 minutes from Nottingham.
HS2 East Midlands to Birmingham will be 19 minutes.
For people living in parts of Derby and Nottingham that are closer to Toton than the central stations, clearly it is a no-brainer to use HS2. For the rest, given the relative time savings, I suspect there will not be that many transferring to HS2 from Derby, but there will be for Nottingham.

It is possible that passengers from Chesterfield and some from Sheffield will find it more convenient to stick with the 'classic' cross-country service. However for all points North - Leeds, York, Newcastle - HS2 will be an hour faster and will take virtually all current traffic.

The question then is, what will the 'classic' service look like? A half-hourly service from Birmingham to Sheffield seems possible, but would be designed to provide regional connections, so all trains stop at Tamworth and Burton. North of Sheffield, it would be useful to provide an improved frequency to Doncaster and then perhaps on to Hull/Grimsby to provide direct connections to Birmingham.
 

edwin_m

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For the rest, given the relative time savings, I suspect there will not be that many transferring to HS2 from Derby, but there will be for Nottingham.

Agreed. The critical factor is what sort of heavy rail connecting service is provided from Nottingham, as the tram is far too slow for anywhere other than the western suburbs.
 
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