Design idea for the next generation of smartcard-enabled gates

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by OLJR, 22 Apr 2015.

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  1. OLJR

    OLJR Member

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    The next generation of smartcard-enabled gates could have vertically mounted readers on both sides of the ingress as well as the top surface.

    This would allow passengers with a smartcard in their pocket to simply bump against the side rather than having to get it out and wave it around.

    Advantages could include faster passenger processing and, through elimination of the need to rummage in pockets and bags, reduced loss of passenger valuables. Disadvantages might include increased fixed, maintenance and out-of-order costs.

    The readers would have to be approximately 12-18 inches long to accommodate the pocket positions of most passengers.

    Thoughts welcome!
     
  2. cf111

    cf111 Established Member

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    Major card-clash issues if you keep more than 1 card in your pocket
     
  3. Emblematic

    Emblematic Member

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    Main problem I can see is the multiplicity of contactless payment cards that would be read. It's already a problem with Oyster, where previously you would just dab your wallet, purse or handbag on the reader, now you have to carry your travel card separately to ensure a payment card isn't debited for PAYG when you have already paid for a travelcard on Oyster, or that the same payment card is always used to benefit from capping.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Just thinking further, it would be even worse where paper tickets are still in use - your payment card would be registered before you got your ticket into the gate. Bear in mind that gates are often left open when the gate line is unattended, but that card readers are still active to allow PAYG travelers to properly complete their journeys. It would be chaos!
     
  4. me123

    me123 Established Member

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    I think it would be hilarious watching Londoners bumping their bums onto the ticket barriers, but I have to echo the thoughts above. Card clash is a major issue, particularly as contactless payments become more and more frequent.

    I think it likely that mobile technology will continue to grow over the next decade, and we could quite feasibly see mobile ticketing, including mobile Oyster, using NFC chips on phones. I think that's a more useful development than repositioning a reader.
     
  5. talldave

    talldave Established Member

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    More to the point the gates need a clearer indication of where to insert paper tickets. I've had plenty of amusement at Gatwick watching visitors to the uk struggling to work out what to do with their ticket.

    And agree, the proposal is unworkable.
     
    Last edited: 23 Apr 2015
  6. gordonthemoron

    gordonthemoron Established Member

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    whilst Hong Kong mtr card readers are similar to oyster, the display showing credit and ticket price is much bigger and more readable
     
  7. WelshBluebird

    WelshBluebird Established Member

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    I quite like the idea of bPay band from Barclays, you just have it on your wrist. Maybe this kind of technology can be integrated with either fitness bands (like Jawbone are doing) or smatwatches (like Apple are doing). Much easier and more natural than having to either get your wallet or card out, or bump your backside against the barrier.
     
  8. cf111

    cf111 Established Member

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    When I had a Barclaycard I had a sticker on the back of my phone which let me make contactless payments by hovering it over readers. It was quite sci-fi!

    I am sure I have heard of some young rapscallions cutting the chip out of their Oyster cards and tying them around their wrist like the thing you've linked to.
     
  9. WelshBluebird

    WelshBluebird Established Member

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    Only problem I have with using phones for that purpose is that you have to get it out of your pocket, so it isn't actually much quicker than an Oyster card or whatever. Although I guess a lot of people have their phones out anyway.

    But there is also the thing in my head of my phone is worth a fair bit of money, I don't really want to be using it in such a busy environment like a LU gateline where it could be easily picked up by someone else. Considering I do use my phone on the tube etc though, I guess that is more mental than a real worry.

    But yeah I have read about that too, though it does probably go against the Oyster T&C's!
     
  10. andrewkeith5

    andrewkeith5 Member

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    THIS!

    I have, for the last 5 years, been walking around with mobile phones in my pocket perfectly capable of efficiently holding the details of all 12 of the contactless-enabled smartcards, access passes, and payment cards -and for that matter almost all of the dozen-odd loyalty cards I have.

    The standards are all there in place ready to go. ITSO, Secure SIM, NFC, etc.

    But nobody can be bothered.

    So instead I have to carry two wallets with 26 bits of plastic and however many train tickets I've used before emptying them out whenever I'm travelling.

    Seriously, to business and industry: stop messing around with barcodes and re-designing ticket gates and incompatible time wasting junk, implement the standards and free us from paper and plastic hell!

    I still don't understand why I have to carry FOUR different ITSO cards. They are the same freaking card, just let me put other operators products on them!
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    In fact, on a totally different point:

    The Glasgow Subway has managed to go entirely ITSO based even for walk up tickets. We should be aspiring to ticket gates that don't need to accept paper!
     
  11. Clip

    Clip Established Member

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    Got this through on email this morning from Eurotransport magazine

    You will have to sign up to the magazine but sounds pretty interesting if you are into the whole smartcard thing
     
  12. me123

    me123 Established Member

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    I don't think it's as much "nobody can be bothered" as there being genuine logistical hurdles to overcome; such as battery life, need for internet connectivity, duplication of tickets, and probably the biggest barrier - mass uptake. Things like Apple Pay are taking off and whilst there are issues surrounding it (there's been some issues in America where some stores no longer accept apple pay/NFC), it's generally taking off now.

    I think we'll get there in the foreseeable future. A lot of the problems can and will be overcome in the short term.

    Another issue with the OP's plan. When I was last in London, I got to enjoy the experience of passing Victoria station in the rush hour. I remember noticing that with the large flow, people were tapping their Oyster cards and walking through one after the other, usually without the barriers closing in between. Of course, tapping your Oyster card gives you immediate positive or negative feedback that your card has been read and accepted/rejected. By contrast, by relying on these proposed readers at waist level, I think it's probable that quite a lot of passengers will get through the barriers without their card being read, and could thereafter encounter problems at the other end when they've (unintentionally) not tapped in.

    Furthermore, everyone's waist isn't at the same level!
     
  13. Emblematic

    Emblematic Member

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    Absolutely - Ditto Singapore for many years now (possibly not ITSO, but single-use stored value cards with refundable deposit.) No reason why a single-use Oyster or other stored-value card cannot be dispensed in place of a paper ticket.

    Having said that, on TfL the use of Oyster for PAYG travel seems to be on the decrease, it's often better value to use a single contactless payment card for all your travel now. A time when nothing physical is ever issued is very foreseeable.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    That's the big issue with card clash. When Oyster was the only card around the OP's design might have worked, and with travelcards it doesn't generally matter whether they are tapped in or out so long as all the tapping in and out is within the paid area. Now payment cards are read and accepted too, the travelcard user has to make sure their Oyster is the only card read. PAYG users need to be sure the same card is read consistently, else they get charged for multiple maximum fares for unfinished journeys. And so on.
    The card readers are noticeably less sensitive than they used to be, now the card usually has to be placed flat on the reader, with anything more than the thickness of the plastic card holder intervening the card will not read. Previously (years ago) waving your wallet anywhere nearby would do the trick.
     
    Last edited: 23 Apr 2015
  14. thenorthern

    thenorthern Established Member

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    I agree that an NFC style ticket similar to what is used on the Glasgow Subway will be the next phase of ticketing although I can't see it happening across the whole Network for many years to come.

    I think once all stations in big cities and on metros start to become gated rail companies will start to use Hong Kong and Singapore style penalties where travelling without a valid ticket will start to become a more serious offence with more prosecutions as arguing negligence will become much harder.
     
  15. theking

    theking Member

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    Please no.

    Then instead of walking through gates in a kind of orderly fashion we will have people stopping and moving about trying to get their oysters read and then eventually having to rummage about to find their card and touch it on the ready.

    Exactly the same thing as what happens on busses when women try to touch their oysters through their bags.
     
  16. HSTEd

    HSTEd Established Member

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    Once you work out the cost of paper ticket stock, MiFARE derived cards aren't very expensive.
    These days its down to a few pence per card.
    And no stripe means you have more useable space for writing.
     
  17. Jonny

    Jonny Established Member

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    That is one of the good things about 'paper' ticketing on the Singapore MRT. The downside is that it doesn't have a printed record on the ticket.
     
  18. thelem

    thelem Member

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    This is exactly what happens in ski resorts. The readers are all on the left side, so ski jackets are built with a compartment to hold your ski pass in an inside left pocket. Of course there's no real problem with card clash because you're unlikely to have more than one pass, and even if you do you don't get charged per-lift.
     
  19. andrewkeith5

    andrewkeith5 Member

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    The Glasgow Subway does print the ticket details on the front - although an easy solution would simply be to allow users to double-check ticket details on any TVM....conveniently that could also provide routeing and time restrictions customised to the location of that TVM...

    A mobile app would also do the job, provided it was made properly for every major platform (which includes Windows Phone, despite what some might like to think. Blackberry potentially also) which has NFC capabilities.
     
  20. Jonny

    Jonny Established Member

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    My main concern would be passing through a barrier with an oyster card (or other PAYG card for that matter) and it is debited when the intention is to use a paper ticket. I'm thinking more of terminals such as King's Cross where all barriers are Oyster-enabled, even for VTEC journeys.
     
  21. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    The gates would also have to be either faster or bigger. With Oyster and paper tickets people reach ahead of them so the ticket processing can start before they reach the gate mechanism itself. The readers would have to be before where the gates start today, to give the same amount of time to process a ticket in a pocket.
     
  22. GodAtum

    GodAtum Established Member

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    How about a smart-glove? It has a pocket on the outside of the hand for your smartcard, so you just touch it against the reader.
     
  23. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    I used to put my Oyster in my gloves in the winter, and it worked very well. However, you did look like you were trying to double up with someone else (not that I ever did get pulled aside).
     
  24. Simon11

    Simon11 Member Jobs & Careers Assistant

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  25. AndyNLondon

    AndyNLondon Member

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    My favourite version of that (& possibly apocryphal, but I really want it to be true) is of someone wearing a fairy fancy dress costume, who'd extracted their Oyster chip & attached it to the end of the fairy wand! *Ding*, and the gates open :D
     
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