Design your own open-access operator

[Mzzzs]

Here's mine:

Kings Cross
Welwyn garden city
Huntingdon
Peterborough
Stamford
Oakham
Melton Mowbray
Loughborough
Ilkeston
Langley mill
Alfreton
Dronfield
Sheffield

Tried giving places with a decent population a direct service to London and provide some stops for interchange.
class 222 with a more budget style service.

 

[sprinterguy]

Birmingham International
Birmingham New Street
Wolverhampton
Stafford
Crewe or Stoke On Trent
Stockport
Stalybridge
Huddersfield
Leeds
York
Perhaps on to Scarborough or somewhere else East.

Gets people away from XC via Tamworth or Derby, opens up new journeys from Cheshire and Staffordshire to Yorkshire that currently require changes on to already busy trains via Manchester.

Improves access to Birmingham airport, more relevant to the likes of Crewe/Stoke/Stafford.

Not viable - you'd not get regular paths that were attractive.

Does anyone know when stations like Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe last had direct services to the likes of Leeds/Yorkshire?

Heh, that's genuinely a great idea, I'd be able to make regular use of major legs of an operation like that.

No doubt far too extractive in terms of ORCATS, though, but a creative and rational service to connect the West Midlands and North.

 

[A S Leib]

One which I'd find useful but would be unlikely to work:

London Euston, Hemel Hempstead (pick up / set down only), Manchester Piccadilly, Huddersfield, Northallerton, Darlington (pick up / set down only), Newcastle

Huddersfield to give it a direct London service, Northallerton to make up for losing most (all?) of its Newcastle services, and skipping Leeds and York because it's in theory an easy change from Huddersfield and there's already Grand Central for open-access London – York.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One which I'd find useful but would be unlikely to work:

London Euston, Hemel Hempstead (pick up / set down only), Manchester Piccadilly, Huddersfield, Northallerton, Darlington (pick up / set down only), Newcastle

Huddersfield to give it a direct London service, Northallerton to make up for losing most (all?) of its Newcastle services, and skipping Leeds and York because it's in theory an easy change from Huddersfield and there's already Grand Central for open-access London – York.

Might be personal bias, but if you want a south WCML station that isn't MKC I'd suggest Bletchley - with East West Rail coming up and it being a potential park and ride for Milton Keynes and surrounds (cheaper parking than MKC) you will probably get bigger takeup than Hemel whose demand is largely commuters.

 

[A S Leib]

Might be personal bias, but if you want a south WCML station that isn't MKC I'd suggest Bletchley - with East West Rail coming up and it being a potential park and ride for Milton Keynes and surrounds (cheaper parking than MKC) you will probably get bigger takeup than Hemel whose demand is largely commuters.

Agreed; I'm willing to admit that picking Hemel was my own personal bias (and Watford Junction would probably be better than Hemel, if not going for Bletchley).

 

[Clansman]

Edinburgh/Glasgow to Blackpool/Manchester/Bristol/Cardiff/Leeds/London.

All run by a Scottish Government financed firm, call it anything you want, and the majority of profits reinvested into ScotRail accordingly

 

[A S Leib]

Edinburgh/Glasgow to Blackpool/Manchester/Bristol/Cardiff/Leeds/London.

All run by a Scottish Government financed firm, call it anything you want, and the majority of profits reinvested into ScotRail accordingly

In that case, I want SNCF, SNCB-NMBS and NS to invest in night trains from Holyhead, Liverpool, Heysham and Ayr to Harwich, Dover, Newhaven and Portsmouth. That doesn't feel like a proposal which would leave any profits though.

 

[Clansman]

In that case, I want SNCF, SNCB-NMBS and NS to invest in night trains from Holyhead, Liverpool, Heysham and Ayr to Harwich, Dover, Newhaven and Portsmouth. That doesn't feel like a proposal which would leave any profits though.

There's already open access applications in for Cardiff/Bristol from Grand Union, and also considerations for Glasgow to King's Cross from Lumo and the mutterings of a Glasgow to London Euston Lumo-esque services amidst steady air demand. And that's not considering Liverpool and Birmingham, and the domestic English market.

Additionally, the Scotland to Blackpool market hits 1 million journeys per annum alone (not considering rail journeys), with Manchester to Scotland (and Liverpool) is dominated by Transpennine with increasing patronage year on year including on internal commuter journeys between Manchester/Preston/Carlisle.

Whether you'd pass the primary-abstraction tests is another matter. And while scaling anything of the like in a oner would suit the economics of risk of open access (personally I would argue it would suit being a commercial investment within ScotRail), I would argue that on the bases above these routes are definitely 'less unplausible' than your sleepers!

 

[A S Leib]

There's already open access applications in for Cardiff/Bristol from Grand Union, and also considerations for Glasgow to King's Cross from Lumo and the mutterings of a Glasgow to London Euston Lumo-esque services amidst steady air demand. And that's not considering Liverpool and Birmingham, and the domestic English market.

Additionally, the Scotland to Blackpool bus market hits 1 million journeys per annum alone (not considering rail journeys), with Manchester to Scotland (and Liverpool) is dominated by Transpennine with increasing patronage year on year including on internal commuter journeys between Manchester/Preston/Carlisle.

Whether you'd pass the primary-abstraction tests is another matter. And while scaling anything of the like in a oner would suit the economics of risk of open access (personally I would argue it would suit being a commercial investment within ScotRail), I would argue that on the bases above these routes are definitely 'less unplausible' than your sleepers!

That's fair, although I wonder how profitable the current Scotland – northwest England services are, and if a ScotRail service could make them profitable if not.

I don't doubt the Blackpool bus numbers, but given that it's remarkable how low train numbers are in comparison; for Blackpool North, there's 16,000 journeys to / from Edinburgh and Glasgow Central / Queen Street per year whilst Dundee and Motherwell are the only others to reach 700 per year. Preston – Edinburgh / Glasgow is 42,000, so it's not that everybody's splitting tickets there.



I would like the Scotland – Cardiff service as well; either a direct service from Newcastle, or a more pleasant change at Carlisle than at Birmingham (I know Derby / Cheltenham / Bristol Parkway work as well).

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

There did used to be (in relatively recent times) a Transpennine Express service that did a daily Scotland-Blackpool I believe, a Class 185 that was split off a Manchester service. It didn't last long, and it may have been summer only.

 

[A S Leib]

There did used to be (in relatively recent times) a Transpennine Express service that did a daily Scotland-Blackpool I believe, a Class 185 that was split off a Manchester service. It didn't last long, and it may have been summer only.

From a quick look of part of the summer 2007 working timetable, a 12:08 arrival and 12:56 departure at Edinburgh. I think it ran all-year as a standalone service then, but not on Saturdays, Sundays or Mondays from November.

---

I suspect fares would have to be quite high for it to approach profitability, but I wonder if an open-access service from London to Penzance, or even Swansea, Weymouth or Hereford, or the two main CrossCountry routes, with a buffet carriage or at least full-meal catering could work on a regular basis, rather than just the limited GWR Pullman services. Maybe Edinburgh / Glasgow – Aberdeen / Inverness as well. Even if they had a chance of being profitable, they'd probably fall on abstraction though.

For the remaining long routes (e.g. Heart of Wales, Far North line) I'd guess pathing would be too much if an issue as well, as would trying to justify buffet carriages on routes currently served by two-carriage trains.

 

[TheWierdOne]

It’s also not just the immigration and customs but the need for security screening.

The security screening is theatre at best, but removing the immigration checks would mean that it could be done by the staff at the stations rather than British officers, which would no doubt make things a lot easier to facilitate. Less need to fully segregate passengers and you can use portable scanners that you can chuck in a cupboard or room when not in use

 

[devon_belle]

The 'University' line.

Brighton
Worthing
Chichester
Portsmouth
Southampton
Salisbury
Bath
Bristol
Cardiff
Swansea

With plenty of luggage space, reasonable fares, no first class but a buffet/trolley service. Designed to take long distance passengers off these various busy local corridors. Services vary seasonally.

 

[mrcheek]

St Philips Marsh is not a passenger line. For the rare occasion it’s been used for engineering works it’s requires lots of special instructions and brings a core maintenance depot to a stand.

even better! adds an extra hour to the journey, meaning I can make more money by charging passengers to use the toilet!

 

[FlyingPotato]

I have a few ideas

One would be to barrow in Furness: Calling at London Euston, Milton Keynes, Winsford, Warrington, Leyland, Preston, Lancaster, Carnforth, Grange, Ulverston and Barrow.
Would be run with a 150m unit to fit with the barrow platforms.

The company who made it, well I'd go with Siemens most likely

London to Scotland Routes. Run by 7 car new Pendolinos built by Alstom

Each route is 1p4h to allow 1p2h running

London to Ayr: London, Bletchley, Nuneaton, Crewe, Preston Lancaster Carlisle, Wishaw, Cambuslang, Paisley, Irvine, Troon, and Ayr.

London to Helenburgh Central: London Euston: London Euston, Milton Keynes, Nuneaton Crewe Wigan Preston Lancaster Carlisle Wishaw, Motherwell, Whifflet, Springburn Dalmuir Dumbarton and Helenburgh.

And also for fun
London Euston to Glasgow Central Calling at: Watford junction, Bletchley, Northampton, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth Lichfield Rugley Stafford Stoke Crewe Warrington Wigan Preston Lancaster Oxenholme Penrith Carlisle Lockerbie Motherwell and Glasgow Central using 12 car Class 700s.

Very low cost. £45 max ticket price

 

[Bishopstone]

Brighton-Plymouth

A revival of the fondly remembered Brighton-Devon services that died-off in the 90s, acting as an express alternative to the poor quality A27 road between Brighton and Southampton, then onwards ‘limited stop’ to the growing university cities of Exeter and Plymouth.

Single class, operated by second-hand but refurbished 2+2 seated DMUs – 158s/170s would be fine. Bright interior colours with practical easy-clean trims and tabletops. Plenty of phone/laptop charging facilities. Decent legroom.

100% online booking – sorry, but I don’t care that Auntie Doris is 87 and has ‘never used a computer’ despite an active Facebook profile: she can get her grandson to book for her.

No Delay Repay for lateness, but a full refund plus £20 compensation if your train is cancelled. No Rovers, no Interrail. No discounts or freebies for GBR employees. Wibbling bashers passively tolerated, but will be blocked on X at the first ‘what unit number is operating 1X53?’ question without a ‘please’ at the end.

On-board staff recruited with people skills and flexibility as the primary criteria – will need to be guard, ticket checker and replenisher of the Costa coffee machine, which is card-only, so those with conspiracy theories re. cash and the WEF can use GWR, please.

Priced to fill seats. If you want a spare seat next to you, for your bags or because you have a misanthropic condition, then you’re welcome to buy another ticket to guarantee sole occupancy – this facility will, in fact, be actively marketed.

Calling points:

Brighton
Worthing
Chichester
Havant (for Portsmouth)
Fareham
Southampton
Salisbury
Sherborne (loads of ‘down from London’ folk and posh schools)
Honiton (as a parkway for east Devon)
Exeter Central & St Davids
Teignmouth
Newton Abbot
Totnes (per Sherborne, but without the schools. Time-rich locals would start a tedious petition if you failed to call there, so not worth the hassle.)
Plymouth

 

[43OO4]

Manchester Piccadilly,

The issue with running London services through Piccadilly is 13/14 wouldn't be able to take the volume of people travelling to/from London, as that island is quite narrow and quite busy with limited access. Victoria is probably a better shout.

 

[popeter45]

either 175's or a new bi-mode 3 car type (maybe 755), either way configured as 2x couchette 1x seated with 1 disabled sleeper cabin and one nomal sleeper cabin at each end

starts with 4 coupled together then splits thru the night

calling pattern
London Paddinton
Reading (split in 2)

Portion AB:
Swindon
Bristol Parkway (reverses)
Gloucester (split in 2)

Portion A:
Newport
Cardiff
Swansea

Portion B:
Cheltenham
Worchester
Birmingham New street

Portion CD:
Sailsbury (split in 2)

Portion C:
Southamption
Portsmouth

Portion D:
Yeovil
Exeter

aimed at where a whole sleeper would not be profitable

 

[Babybirdrobin]

A new cross country sleeper that would split and divide:
Portion 1 would call at:
Aberdeen
Inverness
Aviemore
Dalwhinnie
Pitlochry
Perth
Gleneagles
Stirling
Haymarket
Edinburgh (Where the service would Reverse)
Carstairs (where it would join with portion 2)

Portion 2 would call at:
Fort William
Corrour
Crainlarch
Helensborough Upper
Patrick
Glasgow Central LL
Motherwell
Carstairs (where it would join with Portion 1)

The combined Portions 1 + 2 would then call at:
Carlisle
Preston where the train would divide into 3 portions)

Portion 3 would call at:
Blackpool North only

Portion 4 would call at:
Wigan North Western
Liverpool Lime Street

The remainder of portions 1 and 2 would then call at:
Manchester Piccadilly
Stockport
Stoke on Trent
Stafford
Wolverhampton
Birmingham New Street (Where the train would reverse)
Cheltenham Spa (where the train would split into portions 5 and 6.)

Portion 5 would call at:
Gloucester
Newport
Cardiff Central

Portion 6 would call at:
Bristol Temple Meads
Exeter St Davids
Plymouth
Penzance

This would run twice a night, once southbound and once northbound and would run Monday, Wednesday, Friday and Sunday.
Some new infrastructure may be required which would be funded by the operator.
People could get on North of Edinburgh or Glasgow going Southbound and Bristol southwards, Birmingham, any station on the Cardiff portion, Liverpool Lime Street, Manchester or Blackpool North Northbound in sleeper cabins and at any station either direction in seated.
This would use new a new design of coach and would have two classes of travel, Seated and Sleeper, reservations would be required and that would be enforced
Criticism please

 

[popeter45]

Criticism please

how would Portion 1+2 be split across Portions 3,4,5,6?
may need alot of shunting work to acomplish

 

[The Prisoner]

Anything at all to complete with XC. Those trains are full, wildly expensive and frankly rubbish.

Given Labour is giving OA the green light I can see a core service even of a couple of services a day doing very well on the Glasgow Central (WCML)/ Newcastle (ECML) via Birmingham to Reading/Plymouth core route doing very well using a Lumo pre-book system - i.e. not competing with Cheltenham - Brum or Brum - Wolves unless you pre book and they have the cap to take you.

 

[Class15]

I’d love to see something like the London Crosslink service. For pathing reasons, maybe there could be a ikr on Keynes-Ipswich service calling at the following:

Milton Keynes Central
Bletchley
Leighton Buzzard
Cheddington
Tring
Berkhamstead
Hemel Hempstead
Watford Junction
Harrow & Wealdstone
Wembley Central
Queen’s Park
Camden Road
Highbury & Islington
Canonbury
Dalston Kingsland
Hackney Central
Homerton
Hackney Wick
Stratford
Romford
Shenfield
Chelmsford
Witham
Marks Tey
Colchester
Manningtree
Ipswich

Reopening of the mainline platforms at Queen’s Park would be required
All overground stations on the NLL would have to be called at for pathing reasons, however, I believe Caledonian Road & Barnsbury can be skipped by using the freight lines. If that’s not possible then stop there as well.

 

[Class15]

A new cross country sleeper that would split and divide:
Portion 1 would call at:
Aberdeen
Inverness
Aviemore
Dalwhinnie
Pitlochry
Perth
Gleneagles
Stirling
Haymarket
Edinburgh (Where the service would Reverse)
Carstairs (where it would join with portion 2)

Portion 2 would call at:
Fort William
Corrour
Crainlarch
Helensborough Upper
Patrick
Glasgow Central LL
Motherwell
Carstairs (where it would join with Portion 1)

The combined Portions 1 + 2 would then call at:
Carlisle
Preston where the train would divide into 3 portions)

Portion 3 would call at:
Blackpool North only

Portion 4 would call at:
Wigan North Western
Liverpool Lime Street

The remainder of portions 1 and 2 would then call at:
Manchester Piccadilly
Stockport
Stoke on Trent
Stafford
Wolverhampton
Birmingham New Street (Where the train would reverse)
Cheltenham Spa (where the train would split into portions 5 and 6.)

Portion 5 would call at:
Gloucester
Newport
Cardiff Central

Portion 6 would call at:
Bristol Temple Meads
Exeter St Davids
Plymouth
Penzance

This would run twice a night, once southbound and once northbound and would run Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday.
Some new infrastructure may be required which would be funded by the operator.
People could get on North of Edinburgh or Glasgow going Southbound and Bristol southwards, Birmingham, any station on the Cardiff portion, Liverpool Lime Street, Manchester or Blackpool North Northbound in sleeper cabins and at any station either direction in seated.
This would use new a new design of coach and would have two classes of travel, Seated and Sleeper, reservations would be required and that would be enforced
Criticism please

There’s never going to be the demand for this sadly. Maybe one day but at the moment sleepers only really work out of London.

 

[A S Leib]

Could open-access operators choose to offer discounts of over 34% to railcard holders, similarly to how (I think) Grand Central's the only TOC to give railcard discounts on walk-up first class fares?

 

[jamieh27]

Route 1 - London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street, Milton Keynes Central, Northampton, Birmingham New Street, Stoke-on-Trent, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Victoria, Newton-le-Willows, Wavertree Technology Park and Loverpool Lime Street.

Route 2 - London Paddington to Shrewsbury, Reading, Oxford, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton and Shrewsbury.

Route 3 - London King's Cross to Inverness via Leeds, Peterborough, Leeds, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Stirling, Perth, Aviemore and Inverness.

Route 4 - London Waterloo to Littlehampton, Wimbledon, Woking, Guildford, Dorking West, Horsham and Littlehampton.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Route 4 - London Waterloo to Littlehampton, Wimbledon, Woking, Guildford, Dorking West, Horsham and Littlehampton.

Getting from Dorking West to Horsham is an awful long way round by rail, you have to reverse at Redhill and run via Gatwick and Crawley.

 

[renegademaster]

Ideally something like Lumo on the WCML, but doing the low cost airline concept properly, and wholly outside the national ticketing system (as they are in most other countries).

That means:

1. E-ticketed only (including the option just to show ID instead of a ticket)
2. Compulsory reservations, actually enforced
3. Small bag free, but more and larger bags available to purchase, cheaper at the time of booking or online
4. Chargeable seat selection including extra legroom options at a higher fee
5. "Advances" and more flexible fares with the latter also being dynamically priced as per easyJet
6. Long trains - "pile it high, sell it cheap"
7. Lumo's staffing concept - DOO with stewards
8. Ideally using a low-floor unit like a Stadler
9. Options to order food to be delivered to your seat via the website as well as a trolley service

Perhaps the Government could be sold on this being the second Liverpool instead of Avanti, or use pairs of 5 car units and split to both Liverpool and Manchester.

Would probably be abstractive to an extent but like LNR's Trent Valley operation grow the market too. Perhaps Trent Valley calls could make it less purely abstractive.

Having a way to actually enforce the bag restrictions would kill any of its cost savings over Avanti

 

[FlyingPotato]

I'd introduce a regional Express sort of service between Wolverhampton and Hull, calling at Wolverhampton, Dudley, Birmingham New Street, Tamworth, Burton, Derby, Long Eaton, Ilkeston, Sutton Parkway, Mansfield, Shireoaks, Doncaster, Goole, Bough and Hull.

To run 6pd with most likely Turbostars or 4 car 196s with a small first class cabin. With a future option to be run with a 5 car Desiro verve.

 

[jamieh27]

Route 1 - London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street, Milton Keynes Central, Northampton, Birmingham New Street, Stoke-on-Trent, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Victoria, Newton-le-Willows, Wavertree Technology Park and Loverpool Lime Street.

Route 2 - London Paddington to Shrewsbury, Reading, Oxford, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton and Shrewsbury.

Route 3 - London King's Cross to Inverness via Leeds, Peterborough, Leeds, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Stirling, Perth, Aviemore and Inverness.

Route 4 - London Waterloo to Littlehampton, Wimbledon, Woking, Guildford, Dorking West, Horsham and Littlehampton.

Route 1 defo - Class 805, Route 2 - Class 802 9 car, Route 3 again Class 802 9 car.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having a way to actually enforce the bag restrictions would kill any of its cost savings over Avanti

Isn't that actually the point of that business model? Offer a cheap headline price but really make money on the add ons?