Desiro City end gangways

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Telcontar

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Just a thought – does the Thameslink service not require end doors for 4- and 8-car trains and full end gangways for 12-car trains?

The Desiro City is depicted without even evacuation doors, let alone gangways.

Maybe they'll end up just putting normal Desiro cabs on them instead of those weird space-age cabs. (The Aventra cab is far better looking but also has no end door of any description.)
 
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starrymarkb

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The Thameslink stock is fixed formation 8cars or 12 cars all day. Units will only be split in depots and will NOT work in multiple (think Something like the new S stock on the underground)

Evacuation doors are not needed any more on Thameslink as the Desiros will not be operating through the narrow single bore tunnels on the now closed Moorgate line. All the tunnels in the Core are either double track or have evacuation walkways in the case of the ECML link tunnels

The new design cabs (and the 70 & 380) are designed to meet the new crash regs from the UIC. They must provide protection to the driver in case of striking a vehicle or obstacle on the line
 

150001

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With the 350/3, will they have the "old" styled fronts?
 

starrymarkb

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yes, they will be almost identical to the existing 350s, change too much and it would be classed as a new order and require tendering (whereas more of the same orders can be placed without issue)
 

the sniper

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It'd be interesting to see a City Desiro design with an end gangway. I imagine we'll see such a thing eventually, probably when the replacement of the Cl.455 is closer to happening. You'd have to think that it's appearance won't be too far off the Cl.380 though.
 

Class377/5

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It'd be interesting to see a City Desiro design with an end gangway. I imagine we'll see such a thing eventually, probably when the replacement of the Cl.455 is closer to happening. You'd have to think that it's appearance won't be too far off the Cl.380 though.

There is a opition for Desiro Cities to have a gangway. In fact there are two or three TOC's looking into getting some Desiro City 4 car units with gangways.
 

D365

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I see several posters have beaten me to it, but doors or gangways will not be necessary for the fixed 8/12 car Thameslink '700's. I imagine that a 4 car variation will sport a 380-esque front end.
 

ChristopherJ

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I've always been under the impression that gangways were mandatory for rolling stock operating the Thameslink route so to enable frontal evacuation from the City Winded Line tunnels and Smithfield Tunnel between Kentish Town and Blackfriars?

Why do 319s have an evacuation door at front of the cabs then? The original Bed-Pan 317s were also designed with gangways for the same reason, as well the same reason applies as to why the only new stock permitted to increase capacity on Thameslink is the 377?
 
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starrymarkb

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I've always been under the impression that gangways were mandatory for rolling stock operating the Thameslink route so to enable frontal evacuation from the City Winded Line tunnels and Smithfield Tunnel between Kentish Town and Blackfriars?

Why do 319s have an evacuation door at front of the cabs then? The original Bed-Pan 317s were also designed with gangways for the same reason, as well the same reason applies as to why the only new stock permitted to increase capacity on Thameslink is the 377?

As I said earlier, end evacuation doors were required on the Moorgate branch only, the other tunnels in the core have enough clearance to permit normal evacuations from the side
 

D365

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City Widened Lines/Smithfield [single-bore] Tunnels to Moorgate was the only stretch where cab doors was required, but since these have been disconnected from Thameslink, those doors are not required. Gangways wouldn't be of any use on an 8/12 car train, as units would never couple in regular passenger service.
 

D365

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I remember now, seems to be quite a popular point of discussion!
 

Class377/5

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I've always been under the impression that gangways were mandatory for rolling stock operating the Thameslink route so to enable frontal evacuation from the City Winded Line tunnels and Smithfield Tunnel between Kentish Town and Blackfriars?

Why do 319s have an evacuation door at front of the cabs then? The original Bed-Pan 317s were also designed with gangways for the same reason, as well the same reason applies as to why the only new stock permitted to increase capacity on Thameslink is the 377?

The 377's are not the only stock permitted to increase capacity. The Electorstar was part cleared for use in the Thameslink Core so they decided at some point to borrow some 377/2's from Southern who in turn went to order the 377/5 to cover before the DfT decided the 377/5's should go to Thameslink (and the order upped.

Also bare in mind the Electrostar was designed in part for the Thameslink Core (and part reason why the 375/6's are dual voltage units). There is no reason why a Desiro dv unit couldn't have been used apart from time to get the unit cleared from Bedford to Brighton/Ashford/Victoria/Gillingham. The Electrostar was pretty much cleared everywhere south of City Thameslink already and was a quick soluation.
 

D365

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I've heard that 319s are not allowed to work in 3 unit, 12 car formation; is this true? And does that apply to other 317-322 trains as well?
 

jamieP

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I've heard that 319s are not allowed to work in 3 unit, 12 car formation; is this true? And does that apply to other 317-322 trains as well?

Not sure about 319s but 317s and 321s can run as 12 cars.
 

jon0844

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Presumably they couldn't run as 12 car because the middle set would have doors opening at either end to another door that doesn't join with no gap, where people could slip down the middle, or be unable to open the other door at all.
 

ainsworth74

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Presumably they couldn't run as 12 car because the middle set would have doors opening at either end to another door that doesn't join with no gap, where people could slip down the middle, or be unable to open the other door at all.

That shouldn't be an issue any more as the tunnels they run through now are either twin bore or have emergency exits along the sides. So there is no longer any problem in the event of an evacuation with people having to exit through the front of the train.
 

jon0844

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But is the restriction actually still in force, and if it is - could it simply be that nobody has attempted to get the rules changed?

Would there be much point bothering anyway, given the shortage of stock and the new stock coming?
 

Class377/5

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But is the restriction actually still in force, and if it is - could it simply be that nobody has attempted to get the rules changed?

Would there be much point bothering anyway, given the shortage of stock and the new stock coming?

Correct. Why spend time and money getting it ok'd when you haven't got the stock to do it anyway and a massive new fleet will render anything done pointless.

Don't forget by now Thameslink was due to be handing back multiple 377's to Southern. In fact if it had gone as planned there should have been 15-20 377's left.
 

D365

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Presumably they couldn't run as 12 car because the middle set would have doors opening at either end to another door that doesn't join with no gap, where people could slip down the middle, or be unable to open the other door at all.

That's what i ws thinking. Since the cab doors are no longer required for emergency access, the restriction shouldn't cost too much [money and time] to lift, should it?
 

Chris125

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It'd be interesting to see a City Desiro design with an end gangway.

As the 380's and Desiro City are based on the same bodyshell and seemingly the same style of front end, its probably safe to say the latter would use the same design of gangway.

Chris
 

Class377/5

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That shouldn't be an issue any more as the tunnels they run through now are either twin bore or have emergency exits along the sides. So there is no longer any problem in the event of an evacuation with people having to exit through the front of the train.

Not quite. Snow Hill has some sections where it's 'single' bore and you can't get out the side doors. But not for very long.
 

starrymarkb

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Not quite. Snow Hill has some sections where it's 'single' bore and you can't get out the side doors. But not for very long.

I wonder if these sections are shorter then a typical Thameslink unit? In which case a side evacuation would still be possible...
 

D365

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If there's a cab ride video through the core, I'm sure it would help us to understand. But since neither the Desiro City nor the Aventra impressions showed cab doors, I'm pretty certain that a mistake hasn't been made in the specification.
 

Class377/5

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I wonder if these sections are shorter then a typical Thameslink unit? In which case a side evacuation would still be possible...

Hence why I said short.

Not correct me if I'm wrong but does any 12 car service that runs underground have a situation where you cant exit straight out of the train into a tunnel from the door ends?
 
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