Greetings, Dose anyone have photos of a Detonator Placer as I wish to model two of them in 4mm so the more photos the better, I would prefer older type rather than modern but beggars can’t be choosers and I’m not to fussed about what company built them.
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Detonator Placers
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There's a post on this page with a picture: https://www.simsig.co.uk/Forum/ThreadView/50127?postId=120453
Gloster
Established Member
Do you mean those operated from a signal box or the type used by fogsignalmen of old, as I believe there were differences? I believe the ones attached to boxes were single or double shot (one or two dets blown on each use) and had to have new dets manually replaced after each use. Those used by fogmen had the dets in a magazine and after each train the new det could be quickly replaced remotely by the use of a lever to avoid the fogmen having to actually go onto the track.
Thanks zwk500 much appreciated
Hi Gloster
Yes the placers operated from a signal box, I never knew the Detonator placers worked from a box had no magazine, when two detonators are used together at what speed would the two sound like one shot ?
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I believe the Swanage Railway museum at Corfe Castle has one on display. Rather far for you to travel of course. I can try to photograph specific features if it is the type you are interested in?
It’s noted in the link below as a Clayton’s fogging machine, p6.
(I’m assuming that’s a public domain document and if not I’ll delete the link.)
It’s noted in the link below as a Clayton’s fogging machine, p6.
(I’m assuming that’s a public domain document and if not I’ll delete the link.)
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Gloster
Established Member
I am not saying that there weren’t ones operated from a signal box that had a magazine: this might have been the case in some heavily trafficked arrears. All the ones I have seen and the GWR ones I used had just two detonators which exploded together and then had to be manually replaced. Dets used in signal box det placers were of the standard type with soft lead ties which were used used to hold them on the plate; there may have been other mountings developed by other pre-BR railways. They were supposed to be changed at regular intervals (two months?) but that depended on signalmen remembering.
The two dets were only an inch or two apart on the plate so the train had to be moving very slowly for the explosions not to sound like one, though it was possible. (It did happen once when I decided to leave the dets on the rail after stopping an HST and it had only just started moving when it went over them.) The use of two dets was supposedly to make a louder bang and in case one was a dud.
I understand that the reason for two detonators in detonator placers worked from a box was because they were outside and, despite being covered when retracted, they could deteriorate due to the weather.
The photo of a placer linked to in post#2 above shows the use of detonators with a single metal clip in one side which enables the detonators to be pushed into a holder in the placer. A similar photo we have at St Albans South shows a similar type in use, rather than the type with two lead strips.
I've not been able to find information yet on the frequency at which the detonators in placers should be changed.
Hi Jupiter if you are able to get some measurements for me that would be wonderful what I would require are the dimensions of the magazine housing and the overall dimensions of the cast base and the detonator placer arm length and width and the side projecting linkage length and width that operates the machine would be great I noticed the cast base has a open top showing the mechanism would this have originally had a cover on it? I have just found on a American site a patent and drawing (but with no measurement) that was filed by Herbert Fitzroy Clayton in November 24 -1902 and Patented May 5-1903 for a “Fog Signal Apparatus For Railways“ that looks very similar to the photo in the link you sent, in reading the Patent it says this was a improved design from older models and that it could be worked from the line side or from a signal box.
pne
Member
I mis-read the title as "Detonator Pacers" and thought the thread would be about exploding 140's!
Could you pm me an email address I can use please?
edwin_m
Veteran Member
As far as I'm aware the ones operated from boxes were only exploded in the rare event of a train passing a signal at danger. So there would be no point in providing a magazine, and doing so would almost always result in multiple detonators having to be replaced when time-expired instead of just one or two.
Detonators used for fog signalling, certainly at a distant signal, would be exploded any time a train passed the signal at caution so would be used up fairly quickly. To replace them the fog signaller would have to go close to the track, in a situation where a train could approach at any time and would be difficult to see or hear in the fog. If they failed to do this immediately, a train could pass by without receiving a warning. It's also hazardous to be close to a detonator when it is is exploded, due to flying fragments. Although there would have been less regard to health and safety at the time when detonator placers were common, management would have been aware of at least some of these hazards and providing a magazine with multiple detonators would reduce all of them.
londonteacher
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I read the thread title as Detonating Pacers which was rather amusing!
The detonator placers at St Albans South were not related to any signal. They were provided for 'emergency use' and could be placed on any of the four tracks at any time by pulling the appropriate lever(s). One member, a former signalman at the box, has told us the only occasion he knew of one being used was when a DMU door swung open just as the unit started to move out of the up slow platform and a quick-thinking staff member on the platform grabbed the direct phone to the box. As a result the train was halted in short order and the door made secure.
A 1970s photo we have of the box interior shows close to the door out of the operating floor something akin to a broom-handle, probably resting horizontally on hooks or the like with a dozen or so standard detonators (with the lead strips) wrapped round it, ready to be grabbed as the signalman rushed off to deal with an emergency.
Gloster
Established Member
Detonator placer levers were sometimes normal numbered levers in the frame, while at other locations they could be in a separate small frame at one end or the other; in the latter case they were often short levers. (N.b. Not standard levers that had had part of the top section removed.) The normal colour scheme was white with black chevrons pointing up for the Up Line and (you’ve guessed it) down for the Down Line.
Spare detonators for emergency use were kept handy, but how quickly they could be grabbed would vary. At many boxes the detonator placers were outside the box, so there was nowhere you would need to bang them down in a hurry. They were mostly kept in the tins provided for safety, so having them out loose and available to grab in a second would reflect the particular situation at the box.
Getting rid of detonators that had been replaced without being used was not so well organised and they often ended up dumped in odd corners. I have previously mentioned seeing a senior relief signalman disappear under a hail of old detonators when he tipped over a box on a shelf above the box door.
Spare detonators for emergency use were kept handy, but how quickly they could be grabbed would vary. At many boxes the detonator placers were outside the box, so there was nowhere you would need to bang them down in a hurry. They were mostly kept in the tins provided for safety, so having them out loose and available to grab in a second would reflect the particular situation at the box.
Getting rid of detonators that had been replaced without being used was not so well organised and they often ended up dumped in odd corners. I have previously mentioned seeing a senior relief signalman disappear under a hail of old detonators when he tipped over a box on a shelf above the box door.
Greetings to all
Attached is a photo that I would like to share with everyone on the group of the two Detonator Levers 13 & 14 that has started this whole saga, what my intention is at some point I will have these Detonator levers control a electronic explosion sound underneath the track adjacent to the Detonator Placers one for each line controlled by a photo electric sensor so when say lever 13 is pulled it activates the circuit so as the train triggers the photo cell all hell brakes loose with a BANG! I don’t know if this has ever been done before on a model railway but I’m going to have a go.
For your interest the frame is one of three and is the largest at 30 levers it’s made of all steel including stainless steel the only brass item on it and the only item i didn’t make are the etch brass lever number plates it was completely made by myself in much of my spare time over a 3 year period and finished them just before I retired.
Above the frame you can see some SR SYKES Signal Arm Repeaters there are Six in total these are approximately half size at 56 mm diameter they are fully working with coils and work as the prototype dose as can be seen they are not connected up yet so they show the fail safe position of WRONG, I built them by hand sketching scale plans from many photos that I collected they took me 4 months to build
Out of view on the shelf above them are Three of Six Double Line Block Instruments I built 26 years ago.
Attached is a photo that I would like to share with everyone on the group of the two Detonator Levers 13 & 14 that has started this whole saga, what my intention is at some point I will have these Detonator levers control a electronic explosion sound underneath the track adjacent to the Detonator Placers one for each line controlled by a photo electric sensor so when say lever 13 is pulled it activates the circuit so as the train triggers the photo cell all hell brakes loose with a BANG! I don’t know if this has ever been done before on a model railway but I’m going to have a go.
For your interest the frame is one of three and is the largest at 30 levers it’s made of all steel including stainless steel the only brass item on it and the only item i didn’t make are the etch brass lever number plates it was completely made by myself in much of my spare time over a 3 year period and finished them just before I retired.
Above the frame you can see some SR SYKES Signal Arm Repeaters there are Six in total these are approximately half size at 56 mm diameter they are fully working with coils and work as the prototype dose as can be seen they are not connected up yet so they show the fail safe position of WRONG, I built them by hand sketching scale plans from many photos that I collected they took me 4 months to build
Out of view on the shelf above them are Three of Six Double Line Block Instruments I built 26 years ago.
Hi John thanks for the lovely photo as can be seen in the photo of my Lever Frame I painted the Detonator Levers Black with White Chevrons in the photo of St Albans South the levers are painted White with Black Chevrons do you know if there was a actual reason for the different painting styles or just Company choice, For me the White Chevrons on a Black lever stand out better but perhaps thats just comes down to my eye sight.
Basically that's how we found the levers painted when we took on the box:
(Our lady architect making her first visit to the box in March 2003. All 144 windows were broken.....)
WOW!what can one say other than WOW!
What a marvellous job has been done to put the Box back to the condition it is in now well done, were the Detonator Placers still in position at the track Side Including their linkages at the time the photo was taken?
What a marvellous job has been done to put the Box back to the condition it is in now well done, were the Detonator Placers still in position at the track Side Including their linkages at the time the photo was taken?
No. The box was closed on Dec 2nd 1979 when West Hampstead PSB took over the whole of the line with new Multiple Aspect Signals and an eNtrance-eXit (NX) panel controlling them. Prior to that the local junctions/crossovers had been taken out of service and removed as part of other track alterations. The box was then completely disconnected from the tracks. All the internal equipment, except the lever frame, was removed for spares by BR for other manual boxes. At what point in this several months of work the detonator placers were removed we don't know.
The box had been listed Grade II in February 1979; local rumour was that the local borough engineer was a transport enthusiast and had got the box listed - we don't know if that is correct or not.
Photo in my previous post of the lady architect was after the box had been empty for over 22 years!
More about the box's history at http://www.sigbox.co.uk/sigbox/history.eb
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a good off
Member
They were also operated by stirrups on some of the lever frames I worked.
How many different types ( shapes ) of detonators were in use over the years? I assume the ones used for manually placing on the track by frogmen and Permanent way workers ect were built different than those used in the detonator placers as these wouldn’t require clips/ties on them, so were these made specially to suit the Detonator Placers?
I've only come across two versions - those with two lead straps to apply manually to the railhead and those with a single steel clip for being held in a detonator placer (DP). But the latter was just for one particular DP - there may have been other versions of DPs about? Both types were round. Are you aware too that they were are colour-coded in a seven-year cycle?
There are two types in the UK… ones without straps for det placers but the vast majority of them have straps. The straps are very fragile especially where they’re attached to the body and they can easily fall off if a det is put on and taken off the rail repeatedly, as is the case with the ones used for line blockages and possessions. The straps are made of lead so present a toxic hazard to staff if care isn't taken when handling them. Because of these problems some areas on Network Rail are now using a plastic sleeve which the det sits in and which is then itself clipped to the rail, these use the strapless type of det too.
Dets used to be painted different colours to indicate the expiry date but that hasn't been done for a long time, these days they’re all painted yellow and have a sticky label showing the expiry date stuck on them. Disposing of out of date dets is very hard in Network Rail now (for various reasons) and a few places I'm familiar with have built up large stocks of out of date dets they can't get rid of.
Dets used to be painted different colours to indicate the expiry date but that hasn't been done for a long time, these days they’re all painted yellow and have a sticky label showing the expiry date stuck on them. Disposing of out of date dets is very hard in Network Rail now (for various reasons) and a few places I'm familiar with have built up large stocks of out of date dets they can't get rid of.
Hi John no I didn’t know they were colour coded what years are you talking about? In the BR 1950 Rule Book I couldn’t find anything about colour coding unless I’ve missed it but it states that they were date stamped with the month and year of manufacture the oldest being used first and the unused one’s to be returned to the Stores Department at the expiration of three years from the date stamped or up to five years where authority is given but “ Detonators must not under any circumstances be used after there are five years old “ are you meaning by seven year cycle that they could be used up to seven years old before they were discarded?
Ashley Hill
Established Member
The traditional way of seeing in the new year was one way of clearing out old dets. Try that now and there’d be mass panic from the locals and a visit from Inspector Knacker!
They were colour coded into the late 1980s,I think the colour cycle was in the old General Appendix to the rule book.
ISTR that det placers were also used in connection with points and route protection.
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Hi Dunnideer
I just posted a reply and questions to John that you have pretty much answered and your post came onto my screen when I pushed reply to John although there was a 5 minute difference! Mmmmm! anyhow how did the colour coding work with the year of manufacture? were the same colours used again after 7 years it doesn’t sound a safe way to date a item to me but a date stamped or as you stated they had a date stuck on them is a more precise way to show there age.
Ashley Hill
Established Member
Say dets made in 1970 were coloured blue. In 1975 they’d be out of date so if in 1976 you found any blue detonators you’d know instantly they were expired.
By the time the next blue cycle came around any old blue 1970 ones should have long been disposed of.
Some of the colours used were blue,orange,yellow,green,red and white.
By the time the next blue cycle came around any old blue 1970 ones should have long been disposed of.
Some of the colours used were blue,orange,yellow,green,red and white.
My copy of the 1972 "General Appendix" says that for the period 1st July-30th June, the colour codes were:
1966/67: White; 67/68: Orange; 68/69: Red; 69/70: Green; 70/71: Grey; 71/72: Yellow; 72/73: Blue
The colours then restart in 73/74 with White.
That ties up with the three dets we have at St Albans South which are all yellow and date from 2011. We show them to visiting parties, particularly the younger ones, to explain they are dangerous, if they ever find one lying about it must not to be touched and to call an adult immediately.
Additional Info: Detonators in detonator placers needed to be changed every two months, according to the 1972 General Appendix "...on the first Monday in each alternate month and a record made in the Train Register when the change is made.". Station managers were also charged with making frequent checks on the detonator placers and each signalman on starting his daily duty was expected to check the placers were in working order by operating the lever or stirrup for each placer.
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