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DfT: South Western Railway NOT Financially Sustainable

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Meerkat

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It’s all coming together, and the RMT are walking right in.
SWR have proven able to contain strikes without a Southern style political meltdown.
Direct award/OLR ‘due to industrial action ruining income’, with instruction to impose DCO
PPM struggling
New trains coming up.
Drivers awaiting a pay rise so perfect to smuggle in a bit of bribery

‘The only way this can be fixed is with new trains operated in the most efficient and safe way [insert safety expert data]. The RMT are dinosaurs impeding passenger improvements, we are guaranteeing a second member of staff who will be able to concentrate on passenger care - which is what the passengers really want’

Show enough resolve to break the union even in the southern Tory heartlands and will guards fancy the fight elsewhere?
 
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winks

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It will self resolve itself by the summer, the trains are coming whether the RMT like it or not. Can’t remember the last time they lost a dispute ?
 

HamworthyGoods

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It will self resolve itself by the summer, the trains are coming whether the RMT like it or not. Can’t remember the last time they lost a dispute ?

Last dispute the RMT lost was surely when DCO was imposed on Southern?
 

Meerkat

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With a 5 yr term Tory government do the RMT really think they can win the doors fight?
Wouldn’t they be better off settling on getting a guaranteed second member and what their safety quals are?
SWR seem fine with two people, might move a bit to save strike losses, and then the RMT have another precedent for two crew. They could even start a campaign to get second bod on other DOO lines. But that would depend on whether they prefer more (but lower paid) workers or their political fight.
 

RealTrains07

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It will self resolve itself by the summer, the trains are coming whether the RMT like it or not. Can’t remember the last time they lost a dispute ?
Just because the trains are coming doesnt mean its the end. The operator always has a choice over how the trains should be run by its staff.

SWR can still let the guards operate the doors on the 701s if they choose to do so. As i remember from reading the 701 thread, they do have guards panels within the train itself?
 

pompeyfan

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When the drivers pay deal gets revealed to the drivers within the next 4 weeks that will be the make or break of long term guard jobs on the SWR network. Personally I’m of the persuasion that OLR will see them lead with the stick, at least with a private company at the helm they have to be seen to be leading with the carrot.
 

RealTrains07

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Lets remember, the decision taken by the DfT is not just about the RMT.
The debate isn’t helped by people trying to make it all about how useless and prehistoric the RMT are. Its their right to strike.

Bare in mind SWR has been bad with finances from that start. First tend to take more they can bargain. Considering TPE is in the same mess financially too

so the poor finance situation also is thanks to first too not just network rail and the strikes itself. Plus the 701s are still late which probably doesn’t help them look favourable in Grant Shapps eyes either?
 

pompeyfan

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Worth it for 3 days travel on Bletchley-Euston, if I recall, though only just.

Portsmouth if I recall correctly is about £140 for a weekly or £80 for an SDR... absolutely crazy, and that won’t change under a new operator.
 

deep south

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A few years ago, I needed to be in London a couple of days a week, so I was able to arrange to do Thursday / Friday one week, and Mon to Wed the next so a single 7 day season covered me. Obviously not many people can be that lucky, but it shows one of the options available.
 

HamworthyGoods

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When the drivers pay deal gets revealed to the drivers within the next 4 weeks that will be the make or break of long term guard jobs on the SWR network. Personally I’m of the persuasion that OLR will see them lead with the stick, at least with a private company at the helm they have to be seen to be leading with the carrot.

Either way SWR is the last remaining inner suburban operator in London which doesn’t operate DOO/DCO and the only TOC in the country I believe that employs pure train guards (ie revenue duties do not form part of their grade)...
 

paul332

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Everyone has a right to strike. Many can cause gratuitous chaos by doing so, but most have consciences and choose not to. Striking should be a last resort for a genuine grievance or hardship. The RMT members *choose* to strike simply because they can, for cynical and hypocritical pretexts, and cause misery for all those trying to do their jobs properly or get on with decent lives. They are despicable.
 

Alfonso

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I'm sure it's relatively small fry in the overall picture, but longer distance first class being refurbished with 2+2 seating, rendering it pretty much the same as standard, might have brought in more revenue from the extra first class seats, or it might have dented revenue as people no longer prepared to pay for first
 

pompeyfan

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The reputation of 1st on SWR is in tatters but there’s been a marked uplift in seating capacity. However because performance has been so bad I don’t think passengers have realised they’re more likely to grab a seat, because the loading isn’t even as the disruption causes overcrowding.
 

Monty

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Everyone has a right to strike. Many can cause gratuitous chaos by doing so, but most have consciences and choose not to. Striking should be a last resort for a genuine grievance or hardship. The RMT members *choose* to strike simply because they can, for cynical and hypocritical pretexts, and cause misery for all those trying to do their jobs properly or get on with decent lives. They are despicable.

Cheers, it's nice to be labeled as 'despicable' by someone who doesn't know you because they have this preconception that I sit in a corner and get myself off to the thought of disrupting other peoples lives. :rolleyes:

I withdraw my labour because I feel like I have no other choice, the dispute has be ongoing for over two years and I refuse to be belittled because I have the integrity not to stand idly by as the powers that be attempt to change my grade for (in my professional) opinion for the worse. Going on strike isn't some big jolly adventure for us and nor do I take any pleasure in the disruption that it causes. I used to bleed railway, it was my life and my dream career. Now I find myself a borderline depressive in his middle 30s would of probably topped himself by now if it wasn't for the fact I have a family who rely on me. Either way a career I have loved for well over a decade has quickly turned into a toxic environment in a matter of months and it doesn't help when I see vitrol like that from the likes of you.
 

dgl

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I wonder how many people who are against the strikes would be happy to go into work only to be told after years of faithful service that they were no longer required and there was nothing they could do about it?, not only that but being constantly berated for not only actually giving a damn about safety but for wanting to have a job.

The government are trying to break unions as they see them as a barrier for reduced workers rights and that's the only reason why they want the guards gone, breaking one union shows to other unions that they have no power against the government and to basically sit down and shut up.

Despite claims to the contrary, and the lies in certain newspapers, the only people who for safety isn't the reason for getting rid of the guards is the government and it's lackies, and you only need to look to the reason why the roll out of ATP was canned to confirm that.
 

NoMorePacers

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Either way SWR is the last remaining inner suburban operator in London which doesn’t operate DOO/DCO and the only TOC in the country I believe that employs pure train guards (ie revenue duties do not form part of their grade)...
Merseyrail do the same.

And they will be staying with the new trains arriving in Merseyside.
 

Robertj21a

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I still don't see that a strike is the only solution. What happened to the idea of working to rule ? - I know that may well cause even more difficulties for the company, and passengers, but it just seems that unions go straight to a strike nowadays.
 

HamworthyGoods

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I still don't see that a strike is the only solution. What happened to the idea of working to rule ? - I know that may well cause even more difficulties for the company, and passengers, but it just seems that unions go straight to a strike nowadays.

I think everyone suspects the end result (like on Southern) will be the same whether it’s a strike, work to rule etc.
 

winks

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I wonder how many people who are against the strikes would be happy to go into work only to be told after years of faithful service that they were no longer required and there was nothing they could do about it?.

has SWR said anywhere they are getting rid of guards ? No they haven’t
 

HamworthyGoods

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I wonder how many people who are against the strikes would be happy to go into work only to be told after years of faithful service that they were no longer required and there was nothing they could do about it?

Nobody has said anything about getting rid of anyone though....
 

Robertj21a

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I think everyone suspects the end result (like on Southern) will be the same whether it’s a strike, work to rule etc.

Possibly, but why aren't all options being properly considered ??
The unions always say that they have exhausted everything and only use strikes as a last resort. How can that be true ???
 

The Ham

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SWR no surprise. The lines out of Waterloo have been treated as a cash cow for years (SWT used to make a 'profit' under the DfT mad accountancy) with little investment in the basic infrastructure (apart from Waterloo) for what is one of the most intensively used parts of the rail network. It is worth pointing out recent figures quoted in the Sunday Times showed regional transport spending, in total, for the South East £892 (excluding London) was below the spend per head for London (£3,636), West Midlands (£2,062), Northwest (£ 1,247), and North (£1,247). These figures as always have to be treated with caution as to what is included but with the push to invest in the North cannot see anything beyond absolute basic repairs for some time to come.

SWT/SWR should have definitely seen more improvements over the years.
 

The Ham

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A major issue is that there's an assumption the huge growth of the last twenty years is going to continue, but surely at some point it will level off or decline, especially as our glorious post-Brexit future is so uncertain.

Growth can only continue where there's space to provide for it, and SWR has limited spare capacity.

It's why Crossrail 2 was/is needed.
 

SlimJim1694

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Cheers, it's nice to be labeled as 'despicable' by someone who doesn't know you because they have this preconception that I sit in a corner and get myself off to the thought of disrupting other peoples lives. :rolleyes:

I withdraw my labour because I feel like I have no other choice, the dispute has be ongoing for over two years and I refuse to be belittled because I have the integrity not to stand idly by as the powers that be attempt to change my grade for (in my professional) opinion for the worse. Going on strike isn't some big jolly adventure for us and nor do I take any pleasure in the disruption that it causes. I used to bleed railway, it was my life and my dream career. Now I find myself a borderline depressive in his middle 30s would of probably topped himself by now if it wasn't for the fact I have a family who rely on me. Either way a career I have loved for well over a decade has quickly turned into a toxic environment in a matter of months and it doesn't help when I see vitrol like that from the likes of you.

Everyone else might be choosing to ignore this post but it sticks out to me. I'm very saddened to read this but it is nice to read the truthful opinion of a SWT guard. In my opinion all trains should have guards. I take my hat off to you Monty and I wish you all the best.
 

devonexpress

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This is just another propaganda stunt by the RMT, All they are really worried about is reduced staff means less income for them and therefore less pulling power. The exact same issue came up with the IET introduction on GWR and that was quickly resolved. I was on a Paddington to Bedwyn IET last month which was due to be DOO, however on boarding, not only did it have one guard, it actually had two, one who was focusing on the door opening/closing especially between Reading & Newbury, with the other doing ticket checks, Whilst this isn't always going to happen, it just proves that the RMT are scaremongering for their own ends, they don't give two monkeys about passengers!

It's exactly the same as every time a franchise gets an extension, or gets bad press the RMT is quick to call for renationalisation, why? Because it can then use the railways for its own political agenda whoever is in Downing Street (I.e not just Tories)
 

dgl

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Nobody has said anything about getting rid of anyone though....
Of course SWR will say no one is getting sacked, but once someone becomes unnecessary for a train to operate costs will be looked at, even more so if the government starts running the franchise and losses continue.

Remember at the moment if you sacked all the guards the trains couldn't run as neither the trains (excluding the 707's I believe) or most of the stations are equipped for DOO, once that is sorted, DOO is in operation and if the franchise continues to lose money and savings have to be made where will they start? It certinaly won't be the managers taking the blame will it, plus the government will want to get their revenge somehow.
Plus it will be probably be done on the sly, not employing more guards when other leave for another job or retire, and making the working conditions such that guards will want to leave. Of course then you can use lack of train crew as an excuse further strengthening the governments case for DOO.
 
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