Diamond Jubilee Train Services

[OxtedL]

It isn't sensible in the slightest. The country, its population and its events do not revolve around the railway. The job of the railway is to transport people to where they want to go, when they want to go.

I'm sure a lot of planning did go into running services for the event, and if vast numbers of people want to travel to a certain location at a certain time then there will be overcrowding and some problems will occur. However, to suggest that everything shoud be arranged for the convenience of the railway, and bear in mind many also said this about the FA Cup Final and probably many other events, is totally ridiculous.

There's no point holding something if no-one can get to it.

To use a horrific analogy, you wouldn't build a new shopping centre in the middle of the countryside unless there was at least one major road nearby so that access was actually possible.

I'm quite happy to agree with basically everything you're saying, but you could just as easily take the view that holding an event that it's very difficult to get to or from is stupid.

Anyway, London seems to have coped despite what surely can't have been as bad as a normal peak time load forcing itself onto a Sunday service, so it's all academic.

 

[O L Leigh]

It isn't sensible in the slightest. The country, its population and its events do not revolve around the railway. The job of the railway is to transport people to where they want to go, when they want to go.

...and that's what we did.

My train was double the length it would have been on any other Sunday and no-one got left behind. However, if it had been a 4 car as normal...

There is no expectation that the comings and goings of the country and it's population revolve around the railways. We plan and react to events by strengthening trains, running additional services and sometimes altering the stopping patterns, as anyone who has travelled to a football match or other large sporting or cultural event in London will attest. I've had jobs on Sundays that have been nothing but additional services.

I'm sure a lot of planning did go into running services for the event, and if vast numbers of people want to travel to a certain location at a certain time then there will be overcrowding and some problems will occur. However, to suggest that everything shoud be arranged for the convenience of the railway, and bear in mind many also said this about the FA Cup Final and probably many other events, is totally ridiculous.

I can't see where anyone has suggested this. It all seems to stem from someone pointing out that Sunday working is not compulsory on some TOCs.

O L Leigh

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

I was quite pleased to see Northern making an effort here though, putting 4-car trains on between Newcastle & Middlesbrough for much of the day, with various events up and down the coast! (and yes, that's double what we normally get)

 

[Failed Unit]

Which with the above 2 posts, does make you wonder why some operators make the effort and others don't.

Scotrail will strengthen for some very small rugby games such as against figi, but not for the Edinburgh marathon last week, or the festival (where you can often be left on the platform at the weekend). Do the get demand wrong or just take the view we don't lose revenue if the train is overcrowded?

 

[GB]

What is the price difference in running either a single unit or two doubled up? I was under the impression that track access only applied to a single consist and not per unit, so the only extra cost would be staff (if needed on both units) and power (either extra diesel or higher leccy costs due to more power drawn from the overheads).

While I can't confirm it, I'm pretty sure its based per vehicle per mile.

 

[iphone76]

To be fair to GA, the problem on our line from Southend the Sunday service stops at stations closer to London which can only accommodate 8 car trains. So they cannot put on 12 car trains without missing those stations out and putting on extra metro trains. This weekend that wouldn't be possible as there are only two lines available due to ongoing OHLE works. Getting to London tomorrow and Tuesday should be interesting from here as we have to change at Shenfield onto the 8 car mainline service into Liverpool Street.

 

[6Gman]

It isn't sensible in the slightest. The country, its population and its events do not revolve around the railway. The job of the railway is to transport people to where they want to go, when they want to go.

Nice idea, but under the current structure the 'railway' doesn't really have a job. The constituent elements all have their own jobs.

And the TOCs are there to meet their contractual obligations while achieving a return for their owners.

And providing extra resources for additional traffic which may (or may not) appear will be a commercial judgement.

You - I - other forum posters - may wish it were different, but ......
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The core of any problems with low capacity of major events would be down to the half-arsed method used for re-privatisation in the 1990s. The system exists somewhere between a properly funded public transport service and a privately operated railway.

This is very true. Pre-extreme sectorisation Central Trains used to run a late night Birmingham International - Crewe service after big concerts. It was a very useful facility, and probably covered its costs.

Come sectorisation and ORCATS and we were carrying the full cost, but only getting 40% (or thereabouts) of the income since other operators got their ORCATS share.

So we stopped running them!

 

[tom1649]

Gone are the days when you could just add on a couple of knackered mk1s to a loco hauled set to increase capacity.

 

[VP185]

I wasn't suggesting that everything revolves around the railway, but what is the point in planning a major event if you don't ensure the transport network is able to cope and people can get o it? Also, being such as a major one off event, as a traveller you've got to expect some degree of overcrowding and maybe adjust travelling plans accordingly? I mean, if you were driving a car down there would you be criticising NCP for not providing enough car parking spaces or the highways agency for not keeping traffic moving?

My point was they have organised a major free event on a Sunday, which is more of an attractive day out to family's than what a Cup Final at Wembley is gong to be, or even the Olympics. It's an unknown event of terms of knowing how many people will attend and at what times they will be travelling
Therefore, staging such an event on a Sunday is going to cause TOC's a major headache in getting volunteers to work additional trains.
You're not looking at just an additional drivers either, you possibly looking at employing extra cleaners and maintenance staff at depots as well to ensure trains are fit for service on Monday morning.

Train resources are stretched during the week, weekends are the only time they have downtime to carry out essential maintenance. Just because you see loads of trains sitting in sidings doesn't mean that they will sit there all day. They may be stabled in the morning but in the afternoon, they may be worked on. You've also got to remember, maintenance is scheduled by engine hours or mileage.

When it comes to the Olympics, there are very few if not any additional services planned. And that is simply because the government refuse to supply the TOC'S the resources they need to run the franchise effectively and efficiently, after all, that is why we have overcrowding in the peaks.

The whole object of privatisation was to deflect rail users anger from being directed at the government and put it onto private companies, whilst the treasury rakes in billions every year. What the average rail user still fails to realise is that the government still effectively run our railways and while that remains the case progress will be very very limited.

 

[dvboy]

LM were tweeting earlier they had trains stuck at Northampton due to engineering works but were putting on extra coaches where possible.

On GA:
0900 Norwich to London Liverpool St due 1101: Services full & standing from Colchester.
1000 Norwich to London Liverpool St due 1201: Services full & standing from Colchester.

1730 London Liverpool St to Norwich due 1929: Services full & standing from London Liverpool St.
1732 London Liverpool St to Clacton-On-Sea due 1907: Services full & standing from London Liverpool St.
1802 London Liverpool St to Ipswich due 1932: Services full & standing from London Liverpool St.
1745 London Liverpool St to Southend Vic due 1855: Services full & standing from London Liverpool St.
1815 London Liverpool St to Southend Vic due 1925: Services full & standing from London Liverpool St.

On FCC:
0828 Kings Lynn to London Kings X due 1011: Services full & standing. First class is declassified.
0828 Cambridge to London Kings X due 0938: Services full & standing. First class is declassified.
1019 Bedford to Brighton due 1245: Services full & standing from W Hampstead Tlk.
1056 Cambridge to London Kings X due 1220: Services full & standing. First class is declassified.
1303 St Albans City to Sutton due 1431: Services full & standing from Mill Hill Bwy.

1753 London Kings X to Cambridge due 1854: Services full & standing. First class is declassified.
1823 London Kings X to Peterborough due 1939: Services full & standing. First class is declassified.

 

[Simon11]

Vp185

There was a meeting with all the tocs and the organisers of the diamond jubilee to work together to sort transport issues and cope with the numbers expected.

With the olympics tocs have been preparing for over two years+, sorting out how to cater for the additional passengers and working with the oda very closely.

Its not worth bringing in extra rolling stock but there will be plenty more staff on hand including hq staff.

 

[Mintona]

I've had 6 vice 4 all day, and I haven't seen a single 4 or 5 car set running around. Most have been 8 or 10, with 6 the lowest. Still been heaving, although every single person who wanted to get on my train did so. Didn't leave anyone behind which was good.

 

[Class377/5]

Right facts time.

There were 5 major events in Central London plus people going about their daily lives.

London had 7,555,900 in 2007. Let's say 8m today.

Today's expected EXTRA crowds for the pencils events was nearer 1.5m people. That's like 15% of the entire London trying to travel at one time. Simple maths from a London commuter would tell you the system can't handle that. Not when everyone wanted to go home at once.

C2C did 8,000 up to midday. Then from 1200-1400 they had 16,000 people travel. Now they expected some 20,000 to return home with them at broadly a simlar time. Even with 200 people per carriage that 1,000 carriages to carry people home or 333.3 12 car trains.

Simple figures will show you that it's hard to cope with this level of volume at one go as experienced today.

Also the Gurdian slated FCC for having trains late due to large volume of people. They completed ignored the fact the Police shut the Core for 20mins when the Queen went under the station but blamed poor FCC management for delaying trains. I suppose complying with a Police request doesn't sell as many papers as misleading the readers does.

 

[John55]

Right facts time.

There were 5 major events in Central London plus people going about their daily lives.

London had 7,555,900 in 2007. Let's say 8m today.

Today's expected EXTRA crowds for the pencils events was nearer 1.5m people. That's like 15% of the entire London trying to travel at one time. Simple maths from a London commuter would tell you the system can't handle that. Not when everyone wanted to go home at once.

C2C did 8,000 up to midday. Then from 1200-1400 they had 16,000 people travel. Now they expected some 20,000 to return home with them at broadly a simlar time. Even with 200 people per carriage that 1,000 carriages to carry people home or 333.3 12 car trains.

Simple figures will show you that it's hard to cope with this level of volume at one go as experienced today.

Also the Gurdian slated FCC for having trains late due to large volume of people. They completed ignored the fact the Police shut the Core for 20mins when the Queen went under the station but blamed poor FCC management for delaying trains. I suppose complying with a Police request doesn't sell as many papers as misleading the readers does.

Could you check your math please and a translation into English would help me understand the post. Also I expect TfL probably ran the odd train.

 

[starrymarkb]

I appreciate units need maintenance but given two less workin days could they have not tweaked the diagrams?

Most TOCs run a near full service on bank holidays (unlike the buses)

 

[IanXC]

Could you check your math please and a translation into English would help me understand the post. Also I expect TfL probably ran the odd train.

Yes theres a decimal place lost in the working but I found Class 377/5's post pretty much clear, which parts were you unsure of?

I think you're right TfL, or at least LU will have run services under pretty much the same constrants as the National Rail TOCs. London Overground of course suffered as detailed in this thread http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=66208

 

[thameslink2000]

Southern made a good effort today to increase capacity, with lots of 8 and 12 car trains (12 cars unusual on Sundays).

Gatwick Express trains also serving Clapham Junction and East Croydon for a while this evening.

 

[John55]

Yes theres a decimal place lost in the working but I found Class 377/5's post pretty much clear, which parts were you unsure of?
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=66208

Today's expected EXTRA crowds for the pencils events was nearer 1.5m people.

 

[Southern]

I was quite impressed with Southern as well, Metro workings from Victoria were 8 coaches, bar the Caterham services and there was even a 12 377/3 working to East Grinstead. To be honest, a lot of people didn't help themselves, piling onto the trains at the first available door, despite repeated efforts from the driver that there was "space at the front of the train."

SWT services were much the same, witnessed crush loading of one service at Vauxhall as people held the doors open, thus delaying the train. There were queues for the esculator at Waterloo for Waterloo East, a failed attempt at joining the queue saw me head down the Bakerloo, which was surprisingly quiet given what was unfolding overhead. The crowds at Charing Cross were something else, don't think I've ever seen a Hastings service so rammed, even on a weekday at the height of peak. Southeastern were running 10 376 on most Metro routes, although there were a few 465/466 6 - car formations from Charing Cross...oddly enough, later in the day I saw what I think was the 2155 Victoria - Orpington worked by 8 465, very unusual for a weekend and it had barely anyone on it. The 2142 HS departure from St Pancras - Margate was shown as being formed of 12 coaches, the 2242 the usual double 395 and as I noted the 2153 Margate - St Pancras was also 12, I imagine the 2342 St Pancras - Ashford was the same.

 

[bb21]

I think a more fundamental flaw shown up by today's problems is the lack of coordination between those people who planned these events around the same day, or rather, the planning department of the local councils who gave the go-ahead to all of them.

I agree with a certain poster in the sense that the nation cannot revolve around the railway in deciding when an event takes place, however when it is abundantly clear that we do not have the infrastructure to handle such enormous crowds, it then becomes stupid to allow these events to go ahead. It was pretty clear from many first-hand accounts that many TOCs were doing their best to cater for the increased passenger flows, nevertheless there is a limit to the size of crowd they can safely handle, which places a constraint on what is sensible to be held at around the same time. We should be working around these constraints, which do not go away simply because we should not revolve around the railway.

 

[Class377/5]

Could you check your math please and a translation into English would help me understand the post. Also I expect TfL probably ran the odd train.

Yes theres a decimal place lost in the working but I found Class 377/5's post pretty much clear, which parts were you unsure of?

I think you're right TfL, or at least LU will have run services under pretty much the same constrants as the National Rail TOCs. London Overground of course suffered as detailed in this thread http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=66208

There was no lost decimal place. The figures I used for expected events passengers was 1.5m (that's million) people. That's because, believe it or not, there were five or six major events in London with the main one being the river Pageant. So it drew crowds all over, not just the 750,000 people looking to line the Thames.

As for the English, sorry after working flat out all day getting people home I didn't notice the iPad had changed words I'd wrote (for some reason it likes to change correctly spelt words like trams too). But then ignoring the facts is so much easier when you want to give a certain viewpoint.. Replace the word pencil with expected and you may be able to join the discussion.

As for the figures for c2c, that's what they were stating.

The 12 car working is an extreme but that many people were being expected, but 1.5m divided by 200 people per carriage equalled 333.3 12 cars. Behind the scenes TOC's were out pulling all the stop to get as many people moving as possible. In my last post I did confuse the numbers overall with c2c but still 333.3 12 car trains is a lot. Especially as due to the weather large amounts of people wanted to leave at the same time. If it had been sunny then much much less would have tried to board at the same time.

Also the queuing times outside London Bridge also show the need for a new station there.

 

[PhilipW]

Why couldn't the TOCs run a Saturday service ?

Over the 4-day weekend, the greatest number of people probably wanted to travel on Sunday. So what do the TOCs do .... more services on Sat/Mon/Tues and the fewest services on the Sunday. Does one really need many brain cells to see the problem with that.

 

[Class377/5]

Why couldn't the TOCs run a Saturday service ?

Over the 4-day weekend, the greatest number of people probably wanted to travel on Sunday. So what do the TOCs do .... more services on Sat/Mon/Tues and the fewest services on the Sunday. Does one really need many brain cells to see the problem with that.

Because trains require maintance so some need to be taken out. simple fact is trains were lengthen providing much more capacity anyway than simply running a Saturday service would have.

Not to mention the fact that no one really knew what time people were heading home. That was the biggest factor. If the weather was sunny and dry people would have gone to station much slow and a better flow of people. After the last few weekends of sun that seemed like a good plan. The TOC's had to provide capacity all day, not just leave empty max length trains lying around ready to take people home. The railway doesn't work that way and the Givernment doesn't want it that way (very wasteful and expensive).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Why couldn't the TOCs run a Saturday service ?....

The problem with running more services on the Sunday is having staff to run them. TOCs can't make the extra staff work if the staff don't want to, they can't commit to Saturday running months ahead of time and expect nearly 2/3 of their staff to jump at the chance of Sunday working (nevermind the practicalities of rostering for the day before and after). It is the Jubilee weekend after all.

 

[gazthomas]

The problem with running more services on the Sunday is having staff to run them. TOCs can't make the extra staff work if the staff don't want to, they can't commit to Saturday running months ahead of time and expect nearly 2/3 of their staff to jump at the chance of Sunday working (nevermind the practicalities of rostering for the day before and after). It is the Jubilee weekend after all.

We're not in the 70's any more, the work force need to be more agile. I would be out of a job if I wasn't!

 

[PhilipW]

Because trains require maintance so some need to be taken out. simple fact is trains were lengthen providing much more capacity anyway than simply running a Saturday service would have.

I'm very dubious about that assertion. On South West Trains (my area), on Sunday
- the Portsmouth service is halved
- the Alton service is haved
- the Salisbury service is halved
- the Southampton service is reduced by a third
So I doubt if train lengthening could compensate. In any case some Southampton/Bourmnemouth services are already 10-car Class 44 on Saturday evening so no lengthening is possible.

My experience on Sunday was that I came up from Fareham to Waterloo. The normal 5-car Class 444 from Portsmouth Harbour joined up with another 5-car 444 from Poole at Eastleigh to make a 10-car train (standard Sunday practice). It was standing room only from Winchester.

Despite the leisurely Sunday timings and the general lack of trains we were still 10-mins late at Waterloo at 10:45. The reason given was that we were following a stopper from Surbiton, which was plausible as the slow down started there. No explanation awas given as to why the stopper was routed onto the fast lines. If 'Planned egineering works' was the reason, the person who organised them for Jubilee Sunday should have been fired.

Returning home, Waterloo was packed out from about 18:00 to 19:00 when I was there. It seemed pretty obvious that a Saturday service was needed but. as we know, that was not on offer. I got on the 18:54 Poole/Portsmouth which was full and standing to Basingstoke (though I had a seat).

As we passed Clapham Junction there was an empty 10-car Class 444 heading to Waterloo which had 'Jubilee Special' on it. It would appear as if it was some belated attempt by SWT to run an extra train to cater for the demand. Though what it was I have no idea as there was no indication of any extra service being run either at Waterloo or on SWT web-site.

My impression of the whole day and the efforts of the TOCs to run a full service for such a busy event - 'Pass' or 'Fail' ? Well, being kind they might just scrape a bare Pass, but that is all. They certainly didn't paint themelves in glory. Things could have been a lot lot better. The crowds were quite anticipated and up to Royal wedding levels of last year. So the TOCS knew what to expect ... and that was a Saturday.

Somebody somewhere must have made an awful lot of money yesterday. Maximum number of passengers and minimum level of train services gives a huge profit. So someone is happy. It's a pity it is not the passengers.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

We're not in the 70's any more, the work force need to be more agile. I would be out of a job if I wasn't!

You believe you could be sacked for not doing something that isn't in your contract of employment? Your terms of employment must be shocking.

 

[Mojo]

Today's expected EXTRA crowds for the pencils events was nearer 1.5m people.

How many of those travelled by train I wonder? Atoc were expecting a third of those to travel by train to central London.

http://www.atoc.org/media-centre/la...ain-to-london-to-celebrate-the-jubilee-100704

 

[Class377/5]

I'm very dubious about that assertion.

Despite the leisurely Sunday timings and the general lack of trains we were still 10-mins late at Waterloo at 10:45. The reason given was that we were following a stopper from Surbiton, which was plausible as the slow down started there. No explanation awas given as to why the stopper was routed onto the fast lines. If 'Planned egineering works' was the reason, the person who organised them for Jubilee Sunday should have been fired.

Returning home, Waterloo was packed out from about 18:00 to 19:00 when I was there. It seemed pretty obvious that a Saturday service was needed but. as we know, that was not on offer. I got on the 18:54 Poole/Portsmouth which was full and standing to Basingstoke (though I had a seat).

As we passed Clapham Junction there was an empty 10-car Class 444 heading to Waterloo which had 'Jubilee Special' on it. It would appear as if it was some belated attempt by SWT to run an extra train to cater for the demand. Though what it was I have no idea as there was no indication of any extra service being run either at Waterloo or on SWT web-site.

My impression of the whole day and the efforts of the TOCs to run a full service for such a busy event - 'Pass' or 'Fail' ? Well, being kind they might just scrape a bare Pass, but that is all. They certainly didn't paint themelves in glory. Things could have been a lot lot better. The crowds were quite anticipated and up to Royal wedding levels of last year. So the TOCS knew what to expect ... and that was a Saturday.

Somebody somewhere must have made an awful lot of money yesterday. Maximum number of passengers and minimum level of train services gives a huge profit. So someone is happy. It's a pity it is not the passengers.

I did make a rather broad statement as have you. Scrape a bare pass? You mean in your opition SWT scraped a pass? When TOC's like Southern were running 12 cars, other TOC's like FCC and LM were using all the stock they could I wouldn't say they were scraping a pass but passing with flying odours. Yes trains we're late but at least they allowed for large crowds to get on the trains, which from what I saw was causing minor delays.

Who said it made any profits? Any extra service provided that generated an money would generate money for the DfT as its an extra service. Considering the current government thinking is cheaper railways, then minimum level of service is what you can expect in the future.

As for Waterloo being packed, it would have been packed any way with people getting home. Or do you mean the trains were packed out of Waterloo? Either way both are expected when major events occur.

As for being routed behind a stopper, that's not the TOC's fault. Neither is what engineering work is done. Priority is to get things ready for the Olmypics as they ate higher priority. Unless you believe the work should be done on week days?

Also everyone seems to believe the TOC's had fleets of units ready to deploy at the London stations when the crowds arrived. Seeing as the weather couldn't be predicted when plans were formed, I'm sure the TOC's looked at overall cpcity over a slow period. Plus the fact people started arriving by train into London from 0600 until 1400. That's 8hrs to get to London but most decided to leave at the same time. No way was the system ever gonna be able to cope with that many people in one go.

 

[gazthomas]

You believe you could be sacked for not doing something that isn't in your contract of employment? Your terms of employment must be shocking.

They just reflect the times and industry I am in. My choice - remember why your there, to provide a service. The fact that your customers are stuck with no choice shouldn't be a reason not to move with the times.

I am not trying to offend anyone with this stance, it's just thAt in other industries if the product doesn't meet the needs of the customer they can go elsewhere. Look what happened to British Leyland.