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Did BR ever consider using the Scotrail MK3 Push/pull trains on other services?

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montyburns56

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I'm currently putting together a N gauge model of the MK3 + 47/7 Glasgow Edinburgh push/pull trains and it got me wondering if BR ever considered using similar trains on services outside of Scotland? I know that they may have only been suitable for certain types of services and that BR didn't really have lots of spare MK3s lying around, but did they ever think about using them in a more widespread way as a kind of bargain basement HST?
 
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trebor79

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Weren't they mk2s? Certainly that's what I remember although I was less than 10 years old when they were replaced by sprinters.

They went to the GEML and ran with class 86s until replaced by ex-WCML mk3s and class 90s around 2004/5.

The class 91 + mk4 set is basically an electric version of the same concept.
 

Mugby

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I seem to remember there was a spare set (mk. IIs) which was pressed into service when necessary.

I got it once when travelling from Glasgow to Edinburgh, hauled by a Class 27. I was flabbergasted!
 

LowLevel

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They used to run to Aberdeen as well I believe but they fell well and truly out of favour in Scotland after the Polmont crash I believe.
 

43096

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Could have sworn they were mkiii
Mark 3 (+ 2F DBSO) for the Edinburgh-Glasgows and, later, some Mark 2 (+ 2F DBSO) formations for the Aberdeens wasn't it?
 
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43096

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They used to run to Aberdeen as well I believe but they fell well and truly out of favour in Scotland after the Polmont crash I believe.
That'll be why they converted four more Class 47/7s and associated DBSOs after Polmont, then.
 

trebor79

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Well there you go, it's a dim and distant memory for me. I do remember getting on one from Edinburgh back home to Lenzie and it had really bad flats on the wheels. Thump, thump, thump at low speed to the extent that fixtures and fittings were rattling and it became so noisy at speed it was difficult to hold a conversation.

Can't remember what the haulage was although I do recall watching it pull away after we got off. Might have been a 47, could it have been a 50?? It was certainly that sort of shape.
 
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Harbornite

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Well there you go, it's a dim and distant memory for me. I do remember getting on one from Edinburgh back home to Lenzie and it had really bad flats on the wheels. Thump, thump, thump at low speed to the extent that fixtures and fittings were rattling and it became so noisy at speed it was difficult to hold a conversation.

Can't remember what the haulage was although I do recall watching it pull away after we got off. Might have been a 47, could it have been a 50?? It was certainly that sort of shape.

Why would it have been a 50? At the time, they were all being used on services out of Paddington/ Waterloo.
 

GrimShady

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They used to run to Aberdeen as well I believe but they fell well and truly out of favour in Scotland after the Polmont crash I believe.

It was the best stock ScotRail has ever had and were very popular trains, Sprinters were forced on them.

Like 43096 says, more conversions were done for Aberdeen after Polmont.
 
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dubscottie

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There was a plan to use 5 x 47/7 + 3 x DBSO on the Midland Mainline and the remaining DBSO to Anglia.

Don't recall if it was to use Mk2 or 3 stock.

Can't remember the exact MML service but I think it was a St Pancras - Kettering peak. Was talked about in the railway press at the time (1989/90).

Regarding use in Scotland..

Mk3 and early DBSO sets were usually kept on the Edinburgh - Glasgow turns as they had disc brakes.

The later DBSO conversations had tread brakes and used MK2 stock as brake wear was not an issue on Aberdeen turns. In the last days, anything that moved was used so that rule went out the window!
 

Photohunter71

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I loved travelling on the 47 push/pull, smooth and fast, have to say I still miss them as they were a big part of my life travelling between Edinburgh and Glasgow QS every month from 1980-83, possibly some other locomotive hauled stock in that period too. I do remember the 37's and 27's on coaching stock to Edinburgh in the 70's when I used to visit my relatives. But did some of the dbso+stock end up on NSE lines too?
 

sprinterguy

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But did some of the dbso+stock end up on NSE lines too?
Only the class 47s went to NSE, replacing class 50s on the Waterloo - Salisbury - Exeter route.

The DBSOs all went to the GEML post-electrification for push-pull operation with class 86s, the mark 3s were absorbed into the Intercity West Coast fleet, and I think that the air-con mark 2s found themselves with the Crosscountry operation.
 

Mag_seven

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I loved travelling on the 47 push/pull, smooth and fast, have to say I still miss them as they were a big part of my life travelling between Edinburgh and Glasgow QS every month

yes they were great - and what did we get as replacements for them - Class 158s - :(
 

edwin_m

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Going back to the OP, the Glasgow-Edinburgh push-pulls inspired the use of push-pull mode with DVTs on the WCML and later the ECML. The WCML ones even adopted the same control system working through the lighting circuits so not requiring modification to existing coaches.
 

GrimShady

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According to another forum member, ScotRail at the end of the 80s were looking at short HSTs with one power car and a Mk3 DVT to replace the 47/7s however they were made to take 158s.

I still remember the complaints about short-formed services when they were introduced, cramped and noisey too, and lets not forget the 2+2 seating in first, that went down well! In the early days you were lucky to reach your destination on a "SCUD".
 

dubscottie

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I found the article. 6 sets of 47/7 + DBSO were to be kept for a joint St Pancras - Kettering and Kings Cross - Peterborough peak pool.

The cost of keeping a small pool of incompatible stock killed the idea (the push-pull systems on 47/7 and DBSO were different to what was used on 86/87/90/91 & DVTs).

Plus NSE and Parcels wanted the long range 47/7 for west of England use.
 

Helvellyn

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The original requirement for the Edinburgh - Glasgow service (on a thirty minute frequency) saw ten Class 47/4s converted to push-pull 47/7s (47701-47710), ten Mark 2F BSOs (9701-9710) converted to DBSOs and 35 Mark 3A vehicles transferred North (7 FOs, 11004-11010; 28 TSOs. 12004-12031). This gave seven sets (DBSO-FO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-47/7) with three spare DBSOs and locomotives.

With a high number of spare DBSOs an additional set was made up using former Edinburgh-Glasgow Mark 2s that had been fitted with disc brakes - 1 FK (13424) and 6 TSOs.

To bolster the loco fleet, however, two additional 47/4s were converted (47711/47712).

It was then decided to operate most Edinburgh/Glasgow - Aberdeen services in push-pull formation so three more DBSOs (9711-9713) were converted (although they didn't receive disc brakes) and they operated with Mark 2D TSOs, Mark 2D TSOT and a Mark 2E FO (there was also a rogue Mark 2F FO, 3284). Four more 47/4s were also converted to 47/7s (47713-47716).

One final DBSO was converted (9714) to replace the vehicle written off after the Polmont accident.

I found the article. 6 sets of 47/7 + DBSO were to be kept for a joint St Pancras - Kettering and Kings Cross - Peterborough peak pool.

The cost of keeping a small pool of incompatible stock killed the idea (the push-pull systems on 47/7 and DBSO were different to what was used on 86/87/90/91 & DVTs).

Plus NSE and Parcels wanted the long range 47/7 for west of England use.
That was probably with the 30 high density Mark 2F TSOs (converted from SOs, which in turn were declassified FOs that had the additional head rest cushions removed). These were split between the Midland Mainline and East Coast Mainline (two rakes for each) as peak busters. If I recall passengers didn't like the high density layout. After the recession of the early 1990s they made their way to the Great Eastern Mainline allowing the remaining Mark 2D TSOs to be removed there.
 

47271

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The original requirement for the Edinburgh - Glasgow service (on a thirty minute frequency) saw ten Class 47/4s converted to push-pull 47/7s (47701-47710), ten Mark 2F BSOs (9701-9710) converted to DBSOs and 35 Mark 3A vehicles transferred North (7 FOs, 11004-11010; 28 TSOs. 12004-12031). This gave seven sets (DBSO-FO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-47/7) with three spare DBSOs and locomotives.

With a high number of spare DBSOs an additional set was made up using former Edinburgh-Glasgow Mark 2s that had been fitted with disc brakes - 1 FK (13424) and 6 TSOs.

To bolster the loco fleet, however, two additional 47/4s were converted (47711/47712).

It was then decided to operate most Edinburgh/Glasgow - Aberdeen services in push-pull formation so three more DBSOs (9711-9713) were converted (although they didn't receive disc brakes) and they operated with Mark 2D TSOs, Mark 2D TSOT and a Mark 2E FO (there was also a rogue Mark 2F FO, 3284). Four more 47/4s were also converted to 47/7s (47713-47716).

One final DBSO was converted (9714) to replace the vehicle written off after the Polmont accident.


That was probably with the 30 high density Mark 2F TSOs (converted from SOs, which in turn were declassified FOs that had the additional head rest cushions removed). These were split between the Midland Mainline and East Coast Mainline (two rakes for each) as peak busters. If I recall passengers didn't like the high density layout. After the recession of the early 1990s they made their way to the Great Eastern Mainline allowing the remaining Mark 2D TSOs to be removed there.
Speaking to my Dad, just to add one further detail to the above, Glasgow-Aberdeen push pull operation started in February 1981 using a spare E&G mk3 set combined with a mk1 buffet vehicle - the aircon mk2s and micro buffets didn't appear until the following year.
 

43096

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According to another forum member, ScotRail at the end of the 80s were looking at short HSTs with one power car and a Mk3 DVT to replace the 47/7s however they were made to take 158s.
They might have wanted HSTs, but there was never a cat in hell’s chance of InterCity releasing them.
 

randyrippley

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According to another forum member, ScotRail at the end of the 80s were looking at short HSTs with one power car and a Mk3 DVT to replace the 47/7s however they were made to take 158s...............

That would only have happened if the intended electrifications had gone ahead -in turn MML, GW mainline, and what at the time was known as the NorthEast-SouthWest route (i.e. XC)
 

GrimShady

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They might have wanted HSTs, but there was never a cat in hell’s chance of InterCity releasing them.

True. I do wonder if Chris Green had not left ScotRail he may have eventually got his wish for HSTs on Scottish Intercity routes, a blue stripe HST formation would have looked very smart!

If the E&G had been electrified back then as he intended, one wonders what type of stock there could have been, Class 90s and MK3?
 
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