Did class 91s ever operate at 140mph in passenger service?

[hexagon789]

As i recall The WCML/ECML weekly operating notices all had warnings that 140mph testing was taking place...whether it did on the WCML when 89/91 was being type tested i have no idea, but all staff were told

140 on the WCML would be "interesting", though quite feasible on the longer straights I'd imagine

 

[rebmcr]

140 on the WCML would be "interesting"

Not really. The 390s are designed for it.

 

[gsnedders]

Not really. The 390s are designed for it.

140mph running was, after all, the intent of the WCRM.

 

[hexagon789]

Not really. The 390s are designed for it.

Not without tilt

 

[Bald Rick]

No the Class 91s did not run at 140mph in public fare paying passenger service.

There was, of course, the record run London - Edinburgh run in 3h30 which had invited guests, and reached 140mph repeatedly, and then the conventional speed record run which reached 161mph down Stoke Bank.

This is what Nick Kingsley thinks stands in the way of 140mph operation, even with in-cab signalling:

Tilting at windmills

Edinburgh can be reached from London in a fastest time of 4 h 22 min today; HS2 reduces this to 3 h 33 min despite the new-build infra...

njak100.blogspot.com

TL;DR:

- It's unlikely 140mph would be accepted with the current number of level crossings.
- Timetabling 140mph services would be difficult on tracks shared by substantially slower services.
- It was unproven (as of 2012) whether in-cab signalling actually delivers benefits on existing railways as opposed to new-build.

Put simply, there is zero chance of 140mph on the ECML. It might be straight, but that’s about all
it has going for it.

 

[Ianno87]

That was a test with a 91+5 Mk4+DVT, it was authorised to run at 140 wherever normal linespeed was 125.

In normal 125mph service, both BR and GNER had services timed at 3h59 with two intermediate stops. Timekeeping was variable as there was no recovery time in one direction and only one minute in the other.

3h 59mins of course once per day (1500 ex-Kings Cross in the late 90s) on a quieter network (e.g. pre-Operation Princess XC) and before things like TPWS and modern defensive driving were a thing.

 

[Bald Rick]

3h 59mins of course once per day (1500 ex-Kings Cross in the late 90s) on a quieter network (e.g. pre-Operation Princess XC) and before things like TPWS and modern defensive driving were a thing.

I’m reasonably sure that there was an up service timed at 3h59 in the late 90s / early 00s, timed to arrive KGX 0959 or thereabouts. Always late obviously.

 

[MarkWi72]

Not really. The 390s are designed for it.

Not at Queensville, Stafford....

 

[TheBigD]

I’m reasonably sure that there was an up service timed at 3h59 in the late 90s / early 00s, timed to arrive KGX 0959 or thereabouts. Always late obviously.

There were 4 x 3hr59 services to begin with, 0600/1500 southbound, 0800/1500 northbound. 2 got dropped after only a year, 0800 northbound and 1500 southbound. The other 2 lasted a few years.

 

[hexagon789]

3h 59mins of course once per day (1500 ex-Kings Cross in the late 90s) on a quieter network (e.g. pre-Operation Princess XC) and before things like TPWS and modern defensive driving were a thing.

Twice per day under BR and one each way very much a peak time working, but I accept that it's more difficult today. You just have to look at the timekeeping on the 0540 ex-Edinburgh.

Nevertheless, LNER seems to reckon the Azumas and a revamped timetable can deliver a regular 4 hour timing.

 

[secretsquirels]

I was referring to the speed set. I can't remember exactly where i heard it honestly, on another thread here i believe. I'll link it if i find it.

On the LNER 80x this is done via the TMS, strangely not on the TPE 802 though which (I believe) don’t have a speed limiter

 

[Deepgreen]

No the Class 91s did not run at 140mph in public fare paying passenger service.

There was, of course, the record run London - Edinburgh run in 3h30 which had invited guests, and reached 140mph repeatedly, and then the conventional speed record run which reached 161mph down Stoke Bank.




Put simply, there is zero chance of 140mph on the ECML. It might be straight, but that’s about all
it has going for it.

What was "conventional" about the 161mph run?

 

[Bald Rick]

What was "conventional" about the 161mph run?

As in it wasn’t on a high speed line, unlike the Eurostar that holds the ‘actual’ U.K. rail speed record.

 

[43 302]

As in it wasn’t on a high speed line, unlike the Eurostar that holds the ‘actual’ U.K. rail speed record.

I thought the difference wasn't what line it was on but the fact that the Class 91 was the fastest locomotive whereas the Eurostar was the fastest passenger train, or multiple unit.

 

[DarloRich]

No the Class 91s did not run at 140mph in public fare paying passenger service.

There was, of course, the record run London - Edinburgh run in 3h30 which had invited guests, and reached 140mph repeatedly, and then the conventional speed record run which reached 161mph down Stoke Bank.

is the correct answer! And I agree that 140 mph running is not feasible ( not that my view is in any way expert! )