Did Mk2's & Mk3's ever run together?

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by Robinson102, 14 Jun 2019 at 18:58.

  1. Robinson102

    Robinson102 Member

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    Hi all,

    So essentially, as the title says, I'm trying to figure out if Mk2's of the D/E/F variety ever ran with Mk3a/b loco hauled stock?

    I'm aware that the early Mk2's could often be seen formed with Mk1's, and that some Mk1's were later converted to run with Mk2a etc - but I can find very little to show whether the latter Mk2's ever ran with the loco hauled Mk3's, hence asking here!

    Thanks

    Robinson102
     
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  3. Cowley

    Cowley Established Member

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    I’m going to stick my neck on the line here and say that I think I remember seeing summer Saturday services coming down to Devon from up north in the late 1980s which had a mk1 BG, a rake of mk2 aircons, and a Mk3 buffet car.
    These would’ve been West Coast sets borrowed for summer services to Paignton.
    It’s a long time ago now but I’m fairly certain I saw a set like this being hauled by a pair of 31/4s.
     
  4. chubs

    chubs Member

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    When the Virgin cast off mk3's came to Anglia not enough DVT's came so some ran with a DBSO if that counts?
     
  5. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Mk2s of course still run with Mk3s on the Caledonian Sleeper.

    VTWC in the latter days of hauled stock had a couple of Mk2 formations which I believe had a Mk3 buffet first in the set, only XC had the converted minibuffet-first coaches. I think they also ran with a Mk3 DVT but I forget, they might have just been hauled.
     
  6. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    Yes they did.

    Until the introduction of 110mph running on the WCML from May 1984, the best trains were mostly Mk3 but often with Mk1 catering and the odd Mk2f (the LNER treating Mk3 and Mk2d vehicles as interchangeable at the time). From 1985 the Mk3b vehicles were introduced and sets became more standardised, the Glasgow sets being all Mk3 with a Mk1 NEA rated for 110mph as the full brake vehicle.

    From 1988 the DVTs were introduced and sets began to be marshalled as all Mk3 for 110mph Euston-Manchester/Liverpool/Glasgow or as Mk2f TSOs and FOs with Mk3 RFM and DVTs for the Birmingham and Wolverhampton services. It was a little bit into the 190s before all the WCML sets became push-pull it seems from photos and videos of the period.

    Mk2d and e vehicles ran (along with the odd Mk2f), in some of the Scottish Region 47/7 push-pull sets particularly in 1990 towards the end of push-pull when sets became very mixed.

    Otherwise Mk2d and e tended to be in Cross-Country sets a few years after the Mk3s were in regular service from what I understand.

    Certainly after the HSTs were full deployed.
     
  7. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    Yes, they even used the Manchester Pullman Mk3 sets on summer Saturday workings to Paignton!

    For a short while I believe so.

    The XC rakes were conventionally hauled.
     
  8. Polarbear

    Polarbear Established Member

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    The answer is most definitely yes. BR ran MK2 sets with Mk3 buffets in the formation, and in the early days of Mk3's from 1975 to say the mid 1980's, it was quite common to see mixed rakes of stock on the WCML.

    When the WCML adopted 110mph running on certain services from May 1984, it saw the creation of dedicated Mk3 rakes (albeit with Mk1 BG's in the formation) and gradually, the two fleets became more separate, other than again the Mk3 buffets on some Mk2 rakes (mainly the Birmingham/Wolverhampton turns, but occasionally elsewhere too).
     
  9. 86246

    86246 Member

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    Plus a number of the Anglia sets had a Mk 3 restaurant with Mk 2 coaches.

    They certainly did. Plus there was an odd occasion where a debranded Virgin liveried Mk 3 (standard or first) could be seen among an otherwise Anglia liveried Mk 2 set.
     
  10. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    As an example here are the 1986 WCML set formations:

    WB300 Mk2d BSO, 3 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 3 Mk3b FO, RKB, Mk3b FO (Manchester Pullman)

    WB302 Mk2d BSO, 3 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 3 Mk3b FO, RKB, Mk3b FO (Manchester Pullman)

    WB303 4 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 3 Mk3b FO, RBR, NEA (Liverpool Pullman)

    WB304 4 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 3 Mk3b FO, RBR, NEA (Liverpool Pullman)

    WB305 Mk2d SO, 7 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RSM, Mk3a FO, Mk3b FO, NEA (Manchester)

    WB306 Mk2d BSO, 5 Mk2d SO, 2 Mk2d TSO, RBR, Mk3a FO, Mk3b FO, NEA (Liverpool)

    WB307 Mk2d BSO, 5 Mk2d SO, 2 Mk2d TSO, RBR, Mk3a FO, Mk3b FO, NEA (Liverpool)

    WB308 Mk2d BSO, 5 Mk2d TSO, Mk3a RFB, 3 Mk3a FO, NEA (Blackpool/Liverpool)

    WB309 Mk2d BSO, 5 Mk2d TSO, Mk3a RFB, 3 Mk3a FO, NEA (Blackpool/Liverpool)

    WB310 Mk2d SO, Mk2d TSO, 5 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 2 Mk3b FO, NEA (Manchester)

    WB311 Mk2d SO, Mk2d TSO, 5 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 2 Mk3b FO, NEA (Manchester)

    WB320 3 Mk3a, Mk3a RFB, Mk3a FO, Mk3b BFO (Glasgow portion of The Clansman)

    WB321 NHA, Mk3a FO, 5 Mk3a TSO (Inverness portion The Clansman)

    WB324 NHA, Mk3a FO, 5 Mk3a TSO (Inverness portion of The Clansman)

    WB322 6 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 2 Mk3a FO, NHA (Glasgow/Ayr 110mph)

    WB323 6 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 2 Mk3a FO, NHA (Glasgow/Ayr 110mph)

    WB326 6 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 2 Mk3a FO, NHA (Glasgow Central/Ayr 110mph)

    WB328 Mk2d BSO, 5 Mk2d TSO, RKB, 3 Mk3b FO, NEA (Lancashire Pullman)

    LL300 4 Mk2d TSO, 3 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 3 Mk3a FO, NEA (Liverpool)

    LL301 Mk2d BSO, 7 Mk2d TSO, RBR, 2 Mk3a FO, NEA (Liverpool)

    MA300 Mk2d BSO, 3 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 3 Mk3b FO, RKB, Mk3b FO (Manchester Pullman)

    MA301 2 Mk2d TSO, 6 Mk3a TSO, RBR, 2 Mk2d FO, NEA (Manchester Piccadilly)

    MA302 Mk2d TSO, 5 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RSM, 2 Mk3a FO, NEA (Manchester)

    CL300 Mk2d BSO, Mk2d SO, 4 Mk2d TSO, 3 Mk3a TSO, RBR, 2 Mk3a FO, NEA (Barrow/Carlisle)

    CL301 Mk2d BSO, Mk2d SO, 4 Mk2d TSO, 3 Mk3a TSO, RBR, 2 Mk3a FO, NEA (Barrow/Carlisle)

    CL320 6 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 2 Mk3a FO, NHA (Glasgow/Carlisle 110mph)

    CL321 6 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 2 Mk3a FO, NHA (Glasgow/Carlisle 110mph)

    CL322 6 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 2 Mk3a FO, NHA (Glasgow/Carlisle 110mph)
     
  11. Cowley

    Cowley Established Member

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    Thanks Hexagon.
    I actually remember sitting on the platform at St David’s as a young teenager in about 1986 frantically trying to write the numbers down of these mk3s with actual names. I’d never seen such a thing! :lol:
    About a year later I was lucky enough to see the mk2 Pullman set somewhere (not down here though that’s for sure).

    Straying slightly off topic but there’s a very old thread here:

    https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/pullman-coaches.31111/

    With an excellent post from Helvellyn explaining a bit about the mk2 and mk3 Pullmans.
     
  12. Neptune

    Neptune Member

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    Yes. So long as all stock had air or dual brakes anything from mk1 through to mk3b could run in the same rake.

    Indeed in the 60’s vacuum braked DMU’s sometimes ran with a vacuum braked GUV, BG or even freight van on the rear.

    Not like the ridiculous situation today with nearly every new train being non-compatible with every other one.

    Progress? Don’t make me laugh.
     
  13. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    Thank you for that link, very informative
     
  14. route101

    route101 Established Member

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    Remeber going on a MK2 set with MK3 BUFFET back in 2003 on a Glasgow to Eustonservice
     
  15. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    Presumably a replacement for a failed Mk3 set, as I gather a Mk3 set would've be needed to maintain timings.
     
  16. Bald Rick

    Bald Rick Established Member

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    All the time. West Coast rakes of Mark IIs had MkIII buffet cars for at least a decade before the Pendolinos arrived.
     
  17. ajrm

    ajrm Member

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    Of course the standard formation for the E&G push-pulls was Mark 3 saloons with a Mark 2F DBSO.

    The Aberdeen to Glasgow push-pulls were generally formed of all Mark 2s.
     
  18. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    To summarise some of the exceptions: there was a Mk3 set with a Mk2f FO at one point in the early 1980s standing in for a fire damaged Mk3 and Mk3 sets with Mk2d TSOT pre-roll out of push-pull to Aberdeen (after a very brief use of Mk1 RMBs). You had the odd mixed Mk3/Mk2d/e/f sets soon after push-pull was rolled out fully on Glasgow-Aberdeen in May 1985, and often mixed sets of Mk2f and Mk3 in early 1990 when vehicles were being released for InterCity. There were also 2 Mk3 diagrams on Glasgow-Aberdeen from 1980 right until the end of push-pull.

    Admittedly the mixed sets were usually on Aberdeens except right at the end.
     
  19. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    They were, but the WC ones had DVTs (I think). They also had very different interiors - XC was a fairly drab green and beige, WC was the blue and green used on the Mk3s. And the WC Mk2s had a couple of hopper windows per coach for the likely event of aircon failure.
     
  20. Mag_seven

    Mag_seven Established Member

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    Yes I remember the demise of push pull operation replacing them 158s which were said to be an "improvement". :(
     
  21. Clansman

    Clansman Established Member

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    Used to be 156s and 150s initially!
     
  22. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    The class 47 push-pull sets for Edinburgh-Glasgow and other Scottish IC routes were mixed Mark 2/3 from the off, given that they were a rake of mark 3s with a mark 2 DBSO. From what I can find, when the DBSOs went to Anglia (and became DBFOs) the formations there were mark 2 with (mainly) mark 3 catering vehicles- the entire British Rail mark 2 build had a tiny number of catering vehicles
     
  23. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    Yes sorry, XC Mk2 sets were Mk2e/f with Mk2f RFB buffets and were conventionally hauled. WCML Mk2 sets were Mk2f seating vehicles with Mk3 RFM and DVT and push-pull operated (at least when the TDM was working anyway ;))
     
  24. stj

    stj Member

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    Until the start of 110mph running a full Mk3 set was rare with the exception of the mk 1 BG.Even a full Mk3 set would have a Mk2f first used as the Restaurant.I remember this was deliberate as it cost Travellers Fare less to use a Mk2f for some reason.
     
  25. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    156s from May to September. Even seen a photo of a Queen Street-Aberdeen diverted via Cumbernauld formed of a 150/2 leading a 156!

    AFAIK the DBSOs remained Standard Class under Anglia, they are the reason why Greater Anglia Mk3 sets are unusual in having the DVT at the Standard Class end and the loco against First Class with the trains being propelled out of London rather than into.

    Pre-Mk3 there were about 4 different Anglia formations, these are what I have for 2001:

    2 Mk2f FO, Mk3a RFM, 3 Mk2e/f TSO, 2 Mk2f high-density TSO, DBSO

    2*FO, RFB, 3 Mk2e/f TSO, 2 Mk2f high-density TSO, DBSO

    2 Mk2f FO, Mk2e FO(T), 3 Mk2e/f TSO, 2 high-density Mk2f TSO, DBSO

    2 Mk2f FO, 6 Mk2e/f TSO (mix of 64 and 74-seat versions), DBSO
     
  26. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    In 1983 the Royal Scot was formed as:

    5 Mk3 TSO, Mk3 RUB, Mk2f FO, Mk3 FO, NEA
    100mph

    In 1984 it became:

    5 Mk3 TSO, Mk3 RFB, 2 Mk3a FO, NEA 110mph

    Most of the Euston-Glasgow had Mk2f vehicles as the dining car in 1983 it would seem as only the Mk3 FO is counted in the seating totals.
     
  27. Mag_seven

    Mag_seven Established Member

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    I can't say I remember that - I bet "the great and the good" were not happy about the temporary loss of 1st class!
     
  28. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    I don't know quite how that worked but the substitution certainly lengthened journey times - ordinarily the Aberdeens were XX:25 off Queen Street and that was brought back 3 mins to XX:22 for the 156s.
     
  29. Clansman

    Clansman Established Member

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    How the 150s were thought of as suitable for such journeys is absolutely mind boggling. To think as well that 150001 stood in for LHCS on a number of them all across the country!
     
  30. driver_m

    driver_m Established Member

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    Towards the end of DVT ops. The mk2 sets were tended to be kept to Birmingham services with them only being limited to 100mph. They did appear on Liverpool and Manchester services, but it was rare to see them on Preston/Glasgow services for the timing reason. But up to the last mk2 WC service, it would have always had a mk3 kitchen on. (We never used the micro buffet mk2s, they were XC’s.) DVT sets would have probably been used on XC services as one-offs in the early days of VT undoubtedly, but cross cooperation was more of an pre-op princess thing. Saw a couple of 87s pulling XC services but I digress. Northern Belle is another one if you want something a bit more ‘now’ with mk2 and mk3s
     
  31. driver_m

    driver_m Established Member

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    Probably another question to ask in a separate topic really. But in the early days did mk3s ever appear on more localised services? The sort of service with say a 31 or 37 load 4? Or a TPE service? Basically anything non-intercity!
     

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