Did my train just depart early?

[johntea]

Arrived at Harrogate station for the 19:47 service to Leeds

Was just crossing over the footbridge when it pulled in, looking at the time it had just gone 19:45 so plenty of time to make it...

...or not as off it went! As you can see arrived at Hornbeam 3 minutes early!

Can I claim delay repay considering the next service isn’t until 20:45? Now instead of getting home at around 9pm it’ll be closer to 10pm, thanks Northern!

 

[ys123]

My bro once claimed when his train left a minute early and got compensation. Not sure if the TOC was being nice or whether he was entitled to it.
Although RTT has it leaving Harrogate just one minute early. And it seems to have left early quite a few stops.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y53198/2018/05/01/advanced

 

[Starmill]

I don't see why not.

However... I would expect a you may need to be firm if you actually want to get anywhere.

 

[Starmill]

Although RTT has it leaving Harrogate just one minute early. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y53198/2018/05/01/advanced

That time will be recorded after the train had already left the platform. As the booked time is 1947, one could expect to still be able to board until at least 19:46:30.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Certainly report it.

 

[Loop & Link]

Looked back, and it seems to have departed around 45-50 seconds early, it obviously shouldn’t have done that, but you may have been cutting it a bit fine.

No reason why can’t ask for DR, but just one to be aware of.

 

[embers25]

Try this one...http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C55670/2018/04/30/advanced
It definitely left Stonehouse at least three minutes early based on when I observed it waiting for the signal at Standish Junction.

 

[robbeech]

This happens occasionally. If it leaves early and the train is no booked as set down only then you can claim. Be advised that they may point out the ‘doors close up to n seconds before departure’ rule to you so you might have to put your foot down a bit.
I missed a SWT service to Shepperton last year as it left Waterloo 3E. I was running a little behind and had just gone through the barrier. I was able to claim for 1hour in the end (Sunday) but it took a couple of back and forths and a RTT link and a screenshot of their twitter team saying “Yes, it looks like it left early Sorry!”

 

[pemma]

Certainly report it.

This kind of thing is not uncommon with Northern services, they can have generous timings and the guards don't always bother to check the time before dispatching the train at every station, sometimes they can even allow the train to leave one of the busiest stations on the line 2 minutes early despite the platform having a CIS showing the correct time! Northern claim any instances of early departures are automatically reported but you'd think if they were automatically reported then Northern would be more pro-active about preventing it happening again.

 

[pt_mad]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but AFAIK there's a DFT and Network Rail and RDG agreement which says trains are accepted to have left one minute early on TOPs.

It quite often happens at large stations, they time a minute early. Mainly because dispatch commenced at the allowed time and the dispatch process was quicker than anticipated. Or, at Euston for example, they can stop people boarding 2 minutes before and it may time out a minute early.


Like on a Pendolino. Dispatch can commence 40 seconds before departure time. If doors have already closed as nobody has boarded for a couple of minutes, then it's simply a case of the hazard lights going out and the local door closing. So the train may well depart several seconds before the departure minute and time a minute early on TOPs.

 

[pemma]

That time will be recorded after the train had already left the platform. As the booked time is 1947, one could expect to still be able to board until at least 19:46:30.

Looked back, and it seems to have departed around 45-50 seconds early, it obviously shouldn’t have done that, but you may have been cutting it a bit fine.

No reason why can’t ask for DR, but just one to be aware of.

WTT shows a booked departure time of 19:47:30, so while it shouldn't be presumed passengers know that, 30 seconds before departure should have been 19:47:00.

Without knowing why the passenger hadn't reached the platform at that time it's unknown whether they were cutting it fine. For instance, there could have been a long queue for tickets, a fault with the ticket barriers or a fault with the station CIS etc.

 

[pt_mad]

WTT shows a booked departure time of 19:47:30, so while it shouldn't be presumed passengers know that, 30 seconds before departure should have been 19:47:00.

Without knowing why the passenger hadn't reached the platform at that time it's unknown whether they were cutting it fine. For instance, there could have been a long queue for tickets, a fault with the ticket barriers or a fault with the station CIS etc.

That maybe the case but NWR won't look at it on the seconds as far as I know .If it timed one minute early in TRUST as i say I think they accept that and it's permitted.

The rail TOPs system goes mainly by full minutes anyway and at a lot of stations if it passes the timing point 3 seconds early it times a minute early and that's just the way that's accepted.

Is someone able to confirm that NWR allow 1 Min early departure on TOPs as acceptable? I'm almost sure this is the case.

If you look at Derby for example you quite often see a lot leaving one minute early. If it was a no no I think it would have been stamped out fairly quickly.


Also to add, usually the stance from revenue inspectors is that passengers should be on the platform in good time. If they turn up 2 minutes before the train departure time and have no ticket (as they were running late to the station and want to buy onboard), inspectors will direct them back to booking offices regardless of whether this means they will not be able to get that particular train.

So timing out aminite early shouldn't cause many issues when passengers should be present before the last minute before departure.

 

[Bantamzen]

As others have said pursue the matter with Northern, explain what happened calmly and factually & they may consider in your favour. However a rule of thumb for anyone travelling is to always give yourself a few minutes at least for any connection, I see people on my commute all the time arriving exactly around the time the services are due to leave, sometimes later and often getting caught out. There might be a number of reasons why a service might leave early from the crew misreading the time, their timepieces or the station timepieces not displaying the same as yours, or even very occasionally a late change in timetable for operational reasons. I have become used to checking the running of my trains on RTT, especially later in the evening or where I am constrained to one particular service. If you have an internet capable device I would highly recommend it, the data is usually up to date and might just warn you of such a situation in future.

 

[pemma]

So timing out aminite early shouldn't cause many issues when passengers should be present before the last minute before departure.

As I already said unless we know the specific circumstances we can't say it's the passenger's fault for not arriving early enough - they may have been delayed between arriving at the station and getting to the platform due to a fault of the TOC.

 

[robbeech]

There are lots of tickets the barriers at HGT are set to reject. Particularly if you have broken your journey there. There are times when staff on the barriers are simply not around. I have had to run for a service on p3 before due to there being no gateline staff and that delaying me nearly 3 minutes after a (perfectly acceptable) BoJ there.
In the situation described here it’s entirely possible there were delays getting through the barriers but either way trains leaving early is arguably worse than them leaving late.

 

[johntea]

I was halfway across the footbridge when I saw the train pull in, but didn't leg it as I thought I had plenty of time to get there comfortably by 19:36:30, perhaps just a guard that assumed it departed at :45 rather than :47 - looking at the timetable throughout the day it is :45 but then goes to 18:43, 19:47, 20:45, 21:46 and 22:48!

 

[Bletchleyite]

This kind of thing is not uncommon with Northern services, they can have generous timings and the guards don't always bother to check the time before dispatching the train at every station

That's a sign of a culture of sloppiness. It's not hard to check your watch against the nearest CIS display when you book on, and to look at it each time before pressing "doors close" to ensure you press the button precisely on T-30 seconds.

 

[northernchris]

That's a sign of a culture of sloppiness. It's not hard to check your watch against the nearest CIS display when you book on, and to look at it each time before pressing "doors close" to ensure you press the button precisely on T-30 seconds.

It's quite common for services to wait time at Shipley so the majority of the time services leave right time. However I've also been on services which have waited time at more unusual places, such as Saltaire and Bramley so some conductors certainly do check their times. Then there's issues with station clocks - Apperley Bridge seems to be a minute or 2 fast so if a conductor looks at the CIS there could potentially be an early departure

 

[dmncf]

When you contact Northern you could invite them to use CCTV to confirm your version of events - they might not bother doing so, but it's an invitation and gives weight to your allegation.

 

[yorkie]

Good luck. Let us know how you get on.

 

[Tomnick]

Is someone able to confirm that NWR allow 1 Min early departure on TOPs as acceptable? I'm almost sure this is the case.

I'd be amazed if it wasn't. Not only is there the possibility of dispatch being completed a few seconds early, as others have detailed, but the 'recorded' departure time is usually determined by the time at which the train description 'steps' into the next berth, which (in simple terms) only occurs when the train passes the platform starting signal. There's an offset applied to account for that obvious delay, but that's not an exact science. A train departing on time to the second, but passing that signal a little bit quicker than usual (maybe a good unit, or maybe it had been drawn right down the platform so didn't have so far to go...), will therefore record as departing a good few seconds earlier than others. It only, as I understand it, only needs to be a second 'early' to be recorded as a full minute early in TRUST.

 

[LAX54]

TRUST: 2C59 arrived at 1944 and departed at 1946.

 

[bb21]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but AFAIK there's a DFT and Network Rail and RDG agreement which says trains are accepted to have left one minute early on TOPs.

TRUST do not record seconds in actual performance (so 10:14:59 is recorded as 10:14, as is 10:14:01), although berth offsets are correct to seconds in calculating the arrival/departure times.

Once the dispatch process is complete, the service may leave, so yes, as far as TRUST records are concerned, departing one minute early is absolutely fine.

HOWEVER this does not mean it is acceptable to dispatch a service early under normal circumstances. If the advertised dispatch policy is T-30 then that is what should happen. The doors should not close at xx:xx:20.

WTT shows a booked departure time of 19:47:30, so while it shouldn't be presumed passengers know that, 30 seconds before departure should have been 19:47:00.

Dispatch always goes by the advertised GBTT times, in whole minutes. The advertised GBTT is what reflects customer expectation. A train advertised for 19:47 gets dispatched at 19:46:30 where T-30 applies, provided the road is clear.

I was halfway across the footbridge when I saw the train pull in, but didn't leg it as I thought I had plenty of time to get there comfortably by 19:36:30, perhaps just a guard that assumed it departed at :45 rather than :47 - looking at the timetable throughout the day it is :45 but then goes to 18:43, 19:47, 20:45, 21:46 and 22:48!

Absolutely. Not really excusable but force of habit is a surprisingly easy thing to fall into. We all make mistakes sometimes unfortunately.

When you contact Northern you could invite them to use CCTV to confirm your version of events - they might not bother doing so, but it's an invitation and gives weight to your allegation.

In my professional opinion, this has absolutely no impact.

 

[Esker-pades]

I've had this a couple of times on late night services. For example, the 22:43 Perth to Edinburgh often arrives and departs Haymarket a few minutes early. It departed 3E when I did it, and arrived at Waverley a good 5E.

 

[robbeech]

So should we add (Actually a minute) to the thread title as it’s clear that whilst it maybe left early (which is poor and need addressing) it was not 2 to 3 minutes so ?

 

[Carntyne]

I've had this a couple of times on late night services. For example, the 22:43 Perth to Edinburgh often arrives and departs Haymarket a few minutes early. It departed 3E when I did it, and arrived at Waverley a good 5E.

I might be wrong, but services arriving into Haymarket are set down only, or at least the 1RXX E&G services are.

 

[Esker-pades]

I might be wrong, but services arriving into Haymarket are set down only, or at least the 1RXX E&G services are.

That is true, but this service is not set-down only at Haymarket. It runs via the Fife Circle, so becomes more of a local service. It is advertised as 00:18 from Haymarket to Waverley, arriving at 00:23.

(For reference: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G10565/2018/05/07/advanced.)

 

[pt_mad]

Well we have established that if trust, and thus realtimetrains records the train as departing one minute early, this is accepted as the system only goes by full minutes. The industry accepts them timing out a minute early on the tops computer system. So there's nothing out of the ordinary here really.

 

[221129]

Well we have established that if trust, and thus realtimetrains records the train as departing one minute early, this is accepted as the system only goes by full minutes. The industry accepts them timing out a minute early on the tops computer system. So there's nothing out of the ordinary here really.

No. The TRUST timings etc are not really relevant here. It is the public time table that matters. In this case the Advertised departure time was 1947. The actual departure time was 1946. Not really acceptable.

 

[pdq]

Is it possible the station clock was inaccurate? At Batley, both platform clocks are currently 42" slow (compared to www.time.is). So if clocks can be slow, then it follows that they could equally be fast.