• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Did steam locos travel to scrapyards under their own steam?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bullied462

New Member
Joined
27 Oct 2017
Messages
1
Macabre I know, but when steam was being eliminated from Britains railways did any locos travel to the scrap yards under their own steam and why because I always understood that they were moved in convoy and cold.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
7,583
Macabre I know, but when steam was being eliminated from Britains railways did any locos travel to the scrap yards under their own steam and why because I always understood that they were moved in convoy and cold.

Sure - I saw a photo recently of a rake of Eastern locos running under their own power to Swindon works with the lead loco hauling the rest to be scrapped and have their tenders converted to snow ploughs.
 

TheEdge

Established Member
Joined
29 Nov 2012
Messages
4,489
Location
Norwich
Depends, some would drag themselves and a convoy for scrap. Some would drop their fires and be scrapped there (places like Swindon, Doncaster, Crewe). In some cases withdrawn locos were taken to concentrator yards before single large convoys would go to works or the yards.
 

delt1c

Established Member
Joined
4 Apr 2008
Messages
2,125
cant say regarding steam, however it has happened with diesels where they have been officialy withdrawn but still driven on the main line ( in some cases hauling others) to the final scrapping destination
 

theageofthetra

On Moderation
Joined
27 May 2012
Messages
3,504
Depends, some would drag themselves and a convoy for scrap. Some would drop their fires and be scrapped there (places like Swindon, Doncaster, Crewe). In some cases withdrawn locos were taken to concentrator yards before single large convoys would go to works or the yards.
I wonder if any were deliberately sabotaged by a crew/fitter who lost their jobs or out of nostaligia so they couldn't make their last journey?
 

Flying Phil

Established Member
Joined
18 Apr 2016
Messages
1,925
I think, usually, the steam locomotives had their connecting rods removed prior to towing to scrap yards and they were supposed to be placed in the tenders/coal bunkers. If the rods were not present, then the scrapmen were not happy (after all they were paying for complete engines by weight) and suitable rods had to be found and sent to the yard!
 

70014IronDuke

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2015
Messages
3,693
Macabre I know, but when steam was being eliminated from Britains railways did any locos travel to the scrap yards under their own steam and why because I always understood that they were moved in convoy and cold.

Welcome to the forum, except to say that if you are a fan in some way of the former Southern Railway locomotive engineer, you might make the effort to spell the good man's name correctly.

In answer to your question, the answer is, as others have indicated, steam locos were often dragged* to scrap yards in ones, twos and threes. I don't think I ever saw more than three in one train.
* Of course, it is perfectly possible that a single locomotive destined for the torch would also chug along under its own steam - spotters would just see a light engine movement then, and unless you had access to the official apendix or happened to see it entering the scrap yard, you wouldn't know its destination. No internet or 'real time trains' in those far-off days!

I suspect what happened was:
The shedmaster was told to prepare X, Y and possibly Z locomotives for disposal to Woodhams or Drapers or wherever, and he would also be asked - is any of the locos in suitable condition for steaming and dragging the others?

Obviously, if a loco was suitable, it would save the cost of steaming and running a locomotive to the yard, and then running it back light engine. I have seen reports of Bulleid (nb) pacifics hauling 2-3 other condemned locos to Barry after the end of SR steam in July 67 doing exactly that.

EDIT - sorry, I realise the above can be taken both ways - I mean the Bulleid pacific - which itself was heading for the scrapyard of course - was steamed and dragged others (thereby saving a diesel after July 7).

However, many times the locos would have been in store, in the open for weeks, often months - and in the case of at least some locos on the SR, over a year. This would of course mean a higher risk of failure in some way - could easily be a hot box, or maybe boiler problems, injector problems etc. So in this case, of course, it would be seen as more sensible and cost-effective to attach a working steam locomotive to tow the scrappers away. I have a suspicion this became the more usual method after some failures with condemned locomotives when attempting to haul locos for scrap - but I have no proof of that. Another problem was that many of the locos would be foreigners - eg SR locomotives went to Kings in Norwich, and GWR locos went to Cransley (near Kettering) - and worries about poor condition AND somewhat strange controls for the footplate crews may have meant management decided to opt for a "known" loco in regular working condition to do the drag.

As Flying Phil reports above, locos that were dragged normally had their motion removed: this reduced the load and risk of bearing or seizure problems. I didn't know about problems with ensuring the motion was placed in the tender - but it makes sense - the connecting rods in particular were heavy, and probably a high-quality steel. If you bought 82 tons of locomtive and only got 80 tons in your yard, you would have a right to be complaining.
 
Last edited:

Arglwydd Golau

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2011
Messages
1,421
Obviously, if a loco was suitable, it would save the cost of steaming and running a locomotive to the yard, and then running it back light engine. I have seen reports of Bulleid (nb) pacifics hauling 2-3 other condemned locos to Barry after the end of SR steam in July 67 doing exactly that..

For info, don't think that any of the surviving Bullied Pacifics in July 1967 ended up in Barry (and that's why none were preserved). The did go to South Wales tho, Cashmores and the other place whose name escapes me.
 

Flying Phil

Established Member
Joined
18 Apr 2016
Messages
1,925
For info, don't think that any of the surviving Bullied Pacifics in July 1967 ended up in Barry (and that's why none were preserved). The did go to South Wales tho, Cashmores and the other place whose name escapes me.
The other place was J. Buttigieg of Newport I should think - they cut up 6 MNs and 18WC/BB.... and in the book "Steam for Scrap" there are several pictures of working steam engines pulling dead locomotives to scrapyards.......sadly depressing reading even now!
 

TheEdge

Established Member
Joined
29 Nov 2012
Messages
4,489
Location
Norwich
Ahh Cashmores of Newport, one of the polar opposite yards to Woodhams, demolishing steam locos just as quick as they could.

So, post #10 of a scrap steam thread. Do I mention the SSR or complete locos that were claimed to be buried in Doncaster?
 

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
10,065
Until the very final years of steam loco operation, those withdrawn were normally broken up at the main works rather than sold to outside contractors. They travelled there just like other locos going there for periodic overhaul, unless they were unserviceable (and this happened with locos going for overhaul as well). The outside contractors generally did not have any facility or knowledge for dealing with a loco arriving in working order, such as emptying the boiler or tender, so locos sold to them would need some preparation by rail staff, and then be hauled.
 

70014IronDuke

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2015
Messages
3,693
For info, don't think that any of the surviving Bullied Pacifics in July 1967 ended up in Barry (and that's why none were preserved). The did go to South Wales tho, Cashmores and the other place whose name escapes me.
Thanks for correction.
 

70014IronDuke

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2015
Messages
3,693
Until the very final years of steam loco operation, those withdrawn were normally broken up at the main works rather than sold to outside contractors.

Indeed. I wonder when BR started the practice? And, indeed, why? Were the works so overloaded - or did management want to reduce the workload of the works, prior to rationalisation?
I know for sure that three Schools were sent up the Midland to Cransley, Kettering, one day in April 64, but I think sales started before that. To Barry, for a start. (It just so happens I can date that delivery of the Schools.)

... The outside contractors generally did not have any facility or knowledge for dealing with a loco arriving in working order, such as emptying the boiler or tender, so locos sold to them would need some preparation by rail staff, and then be hauled.
Very good point.
 

Ploughman

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
2,888
Location
Near where the 3 ridings meet
One other point to consider.
If all the locos in a rake are delivered to the scrap yard including the hauling loco.
How do the crew get back home?
The yard may not be within easy walking distance.
 

Flying Phil

Established Member
Joined
18 Apr 2016
Messages
1,925
One other point to consider.
If all the locos in a rake are delivered to the scrap yard including the hauling loco.
How do the crew get back home?
The yard may not be within easy walking distance.
Another very valid point - and so if a working locomotive was used it may well have returned "light" engine?
The Kettering yard mentioned by IronDuke would have been "Cohens 600" and I also visited there around that time and bought a couple of locomotive gauges - which I still have!
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,068
As an aside, most of the first generation of trams in London were scrapped by George Cohen at his Charlton works. Whether it was entirely a coincidence that the final handful of routes included one that passed the works I don't know, but it certainly meant that many went under their own steam (sorry!!) to their fate, almost like lambs to their slaughter. There were over 700 trams in London service at the start of 1949 and they'd been wiped out by 6th July 1952. Incidentally, the price of scrap metal dwindled for a while in the UK as a direct result of so much availability.
 

70014IronDuke

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2015
Messages
3,693
One other point to consider.
If all the locos in a rake are delivered to the scrap yard including the hauling loco.
How do the crew get back home?
The yard may not be within easy walking distance.

I don't think that is any big deal. The "last mile" - or quite possibly the last 30 or 50 - would have been worked by a local crew. They would be expected to get on a local bus, or maybe the shed had a mini-bus that collected them.
Like any inter-regional freight working, if, say, a Bulleid pacific were dragging two others from Salisbury to S Wales, then the Salisbury crew would get out at Bristol (or maybe even Westbury?) - wherever they signed the road for, and another crew that signed the route would take the train on.

EDIT: the more I think about it, the more I think that of the scrap trains that I saw the maximum was two dead locos and one in steam - not as I earlier indicated three dead locos and a towing engine. (May not be important, but I like to be accurate.)
 

Bevan Price

Established Member
Joined
22 Apr 2010
Messages
7,336
Indeed. I wonder when BR started the practice? And, indeed, why? Were the works so overloaded - or did management want to reduce the workload of the works, prior to rationalisation?

Very good point.

I think that as the end of steam approached, the numbers of withdrawn steam locos simply overwhelmed the ability of BR works to scrap them all.

Looking at some old RCTS Locomotive Stock Books, until the early 1950s, typically about 400 to 500 steam locos were withdrawn each year. By 1959, this had increased to over 1600, and in 1962, almost 3000 steam locos were withdrawn. Then between 1300 & 2000 locos per year were withdrawn until 1967.
 

70014IronDuke

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2015
Messages
3,693
I think that as the end of steam approached, the numbers of withdrawn steam locos simply overwhelmed the ability of BR works to scrap them all.

Looking at some old RCTS Locomotive Stock Books, until the early 1950s, typically about 400 to 500 steam locos were withdrawn each year. By 1959, this had increased to over 1600, and in 1962, almost 3000 steam locos were withdrawn. Then between 1300 & 2000 locos per year were withdrawn until 1967.

Good numbers, Bevan. Certainly indicates the volume to be dealt with.
1962 was a devastating year for express passenger steam locos, for sure.
 

Cowley

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
15 Apr 2016
Messages
15,756
Location
Devon
Interesting thread chaps.
I was reading somewhere recently that sometimes locomotives went for scrap with a full tender of coal due to the locomotive being prepared on shed for their next turn when being disposed of and the tender being filled etc, but that next duty never actually materialising.
Did any of our members that remember those times witness this at all?
 

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
10,065
The number of WR locos disposed to independents (and subsequently retrieved from them) is surprising; the Western had a huge scrapyard on the north side of Swindon works, which had originally been laid down for disposal of all the broad gauge stock, and for a scrapyard was very well equipped, with tracked electric travelling cranes with electro-magnets for handling the resulting steel - the cranes and their electric overhead wires form the backdrop of many a WR loco's last photograph. This all lasted well into the BR diesel era when it was the principal internal scrapyard; I'm not aware of anything like it anywhere else on the system.
 

70014IronDuke

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2015
Messages
3,693
The number of WR locos disposed to independents (and subsequently retrieved from them) is surprising; the Western had a huge scrapyard on the north side of Swindon works, which had originally been laid down for disposal of all the broad gauge stock, and for a scrapyard was very well equipped, with tracked electric travelling cranes with electro-magnets for handling the resulting steel - the cranes and their electric overhead wires form the backdrop of many a WR loco's last photograph. This all lasted well into the BR diesel era when it was the principal internal scrapyard; I'm not aware of anything like it anywhere else on the system.

Very interesting, Mr T. You could (as I'm sure you know) view the scrap yard from up the hill in Swindon Old Town, but I had no idea of the yard's origins. Despite all the facilities, however, some (quite a few?) locos that were there c 1964, including the two Kings, were sent to Barry - unless I've got mixed up.
I dragged my parents to Swindon one Sunday in a desperate attempt to see the Kings (I never saw any in service, somehow they eluded me, despite a fair bit of 'spotting on the Western in 62) - only to find out that bunking the works, especially on a Sunday, was not going to happen. And I didn't know about the Old Town vantage point in those days.
 

70014IronDuke

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2015
Messages
3,693
Interesting thread chaps.
I was reading somewhere recently that sometimes locomotives went for scrap with a full tender of coal due to the locomotive being prepared on shed for their next turn when being disposed of and the tender being filled etc, but that next duty never actually materialising.
Did any of our members that remember those times witness this at all?

I'm sure it happened more than once. On the old LMS e-list 10 or 12 years ago, a former fitter described how he helped renew the big end on the inside cylinder connecting rod of 46100 Royal Scot at Nottingham in (I think) 1962 - a substantial and costly job - only for the locomotive to be condemned before it left the shed.
 

Flying Phil

Established Member
Joined
18 Apr 2016
Messages
1,925
When I went on a "shed bashing" tour of the remaining NW steam sheds in 1967/8, a fitter told us of the brand new copper firebox in a recently overhauled black 5.....that was on the scrap line......
 

341o2

Established Member
Joined
17 Oct 2011
Messages
1,902
I think that as the end of steam approached, the numbers of withdrawn steam locos simply overwhelmed the ability of BR works to scrap them all.

Looking at some old RCTS Locomotive Stock Books, until the early 1950s, typically about 400 to 500 steam locos were withdrawn each year. By 1959, this had increased to over 1600, and in 1962, almost 3000 steam locos were withdrawn. Then between 1300 & 2000 locos per year were withdrawn until 1967.
indeed, figures I have indicate some 16,000 locomotives were withdrawn in the final years of steam, and BR couldn't cope. I also remember the irony of one of the early diesels in BR blue sharing the scrap queue at Barry. Barry is of course unique in not immediately scrapping locos ending up there, and had 71000 not been turned away from another yard, this loco would not be in existence today
 

341o2

Established Member
Joined
17 Oct 2011
Messages
1,902
When I went on a "shed bashing" tour of the remaining NW steam sheds in 1967/8, a fitter told us of the brand new copper firebox in a recently overhauled black 5.....that was on the scrap line......
But locomotives were withdrawn at the proverbial drop of a hat. I believe that in the final days, a standard tank deralied on shed, and was withdrawn on the spot. Then London Transport continued to overhaul trolleybuses to the end, one Q1 was withdrawn and sold to a Spanish operator within a week of a full overhaul
 

Badzee

New Member
Joined
14 Oct 2019
Messages
2
Location
Dy69te
As a fireman in the sixties I took around 100 steam locos into Cashmores Great bridge for cutting up nearly all were stripped of some parts so they couldn't get there under their own steam.
 

markindurham

Member
Joined
1 Nov 2011
Messages
385
There have been a few photos on FB Groups recently showing locomotives heading to Darlington for scrap under their own power. The latest two showed Q1s at York, shed plates removed, heading north. A quick check of brdatabase.info revealed last sheds, dates etc
 

70014IronDuke

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2015
Messages
3,693
As a fireman in the sixties I took around 100 steam locos into Cashmores Great bridge for cutting up nearly all were stripped of some parts so they couldn't get there under their own steam.

Well, back in those days locos sent for scrapping certainly had their motion removed in most cases. But there would be nothing wrong with keeping one loco fit for service to haul 2-3 to the scrappers. I'm sure this happened on many occasions, but in truth, I can't remember a single specific case.

And it's not clear what you are saying here, but the implication is that you took the scrappers into the yard with another locomotive, not condemned. Is that correct?

Welcome to the forum, BTW.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top