Didcot - Reading

[didcartfaraway]

Hi all, new member here. I am experiencing some issues with understanding fares between Didcot and Reading. At it seems this confusion is shared with GWR. As I understand it there are off peak restrictions (FR). These restrictions would seem to preclude the use of the fast, non-stop trains between Reading and Didcot for the evening peak. But staff at both stations have always said that off peak tickets were valid on any evening train. And this was backed up by a poster at Reading station that said any train after 0923 until the end of the day from Reading to Didcot could be used with an off peak ticket. This makes no mention of it needing to be a return portion of a ticket, simply that an off peak ticket can be used on all services after 0923.

These evening peak restrictions were, until recently, displayed on NRE and the GWR website app. Put in a late morning DID-RDG outward portion of a return and the evening the return ticket would be anytime / off peak depending on the evening train you select for the return. That has now changed and for a return at least, all evening trains are now available for use with an off peak ticket. But single off peak tickets from Reading to Didcot still have this restriction so that you cannot use a single RDG - DID off peak on the fast trains (for want of a better description)

Forgive me for a bit of a newbie question but when the 'origin' is referred to for a return ticket, is that the origin of the return ticket, or the origin of the journey for that portion of the ticket? That would help clarify the FR restrictions for me, but they still seem to not be consistent with the published info at the station on the poster nor the information given out byt the ticketing staff, Unfortunately, train revenue protection staff are using the app / NRE as their source of truth and seem to be incorrectly applying the restrictions.

GWR have told me there is an error in their app, which is presumably the same data that drives NRE, that there is no timescale to fix it, and the ombudsman has recommended they update their information as soon as possible. In the interim GWR have told me to carry an email with me to prove to the on board staff that off peak tickets are valid. This seems bizarre. What I would really like to do is understand fully the fare structure.

I am not in dispute with them. I have never been challenged about my ticket but I have seen others that have been and threatened with action until I stepped in.

It seems bonkers to me that to get the 1828 train from Reading to Didcot it is cheaper to ask for a return starting at Didcot and throw away the outward portion than it is to get a single. A near 50% saving if you do that.

 

[30907]

It's about a 35% saving to be pedantic (welcome to RailPedantUKForums BTW).
The FR restriction affects a selection of evening trains from RDG, as you say, and applies equally to singles and returns. Online systems don't seem to apply this NRE seems to have corrected this within the last couple minutes.
However, if there is a current poster at RDG stating that there are no evening restrictions, take a photo as proof and GW must honour it on the day.
I predict the poster will disappear over the weekend

 

[Paul Kelly]

As far as I know these restrictions came in around this time last year, very sneakily at the same time as the new timetable was launched (even though fares are only supposed to be changed in January, May or September), and there was no publicity about them at all so it's not surprising that not many staff know about them.

You can see the full details that are specified by GWR's pricing manager (and used by all journey planner apps) here:

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=DID&dest=RDG&grpd=0403&tkt=CDR

(scroll down to "Unpublished Restrictions" at the bottom to get to the real meat of the data).

It certainly looks to me like they are intentional rather than a mistake - the gaps in the barred departure periods from Reading correspond to the times of stopping trains to Didcot.

It seems bonkers to me that to get the 1828 train from Reading to Didcot it is cheaper to ask for a return starting at Didcot and throw away the outward portion than it is to get a single.

I am not seeing this - see attached screenshot from NRE. The restrictions on an Off-Peak Day Single from RDG-DID are the same as on the return portion of an Off-Peak Day Return from DID-RDG.


(Edit: add correct screenshot)

 

[didcartfaraway]

Sorry, I misread the NRE website. It looked to me like you could use any evening service but you are correct on that. I misread the green ticks as being able to use the service



My apologies. But that still does not explain the poster at the station nor the ruling from the ombudsman:

The RSP stated that the poster had not been removed from the station ‘as the information is accurate. As noted previously, this relates to an easement in place for a specific journey and not the general terms and conditions that the poster advises of.’

But I can find no reference to the easement anywhere. This was in May. So the easement must have existed in May 2020.

Additionally GWR have told me:

I escalated your enquiry with our Specialist team and they advised that there is ongoing issue with the Journey Planner with no estimate date when it will be rectified. However, you can use this email as a proof that you are travelling with the correct type of ticket in case you are questioned by the Ticket inspector.

But how can I know which train I can travel on f there is no information relating to the fares. A cynic would just carry the aforementioned email and produce it at will. I am determined to find out the source of the easement, and indeed whether it still exists.

You will not be surprised to know that the poster has gone, but the advice at Didcot and Reading remains the same that you can use an off peak ticket in the evening.

And yes, 35% would be closer. That's a fair cop.

I've just realised how easy it is to post pictures so here is the poster. Taken 19/2/20 at 0720 am. So relevant to this years fares.

Appreciate the advice and chat. I am quite rules focussed and not being able to get to the bottom of understanding them vexes me somewhat.

 

[bkhtele]

From memory the new evening restrictions changed around May 2020. It seems the intention was to make the fast evening peak trains from Reading to Didcot, peak.(continuing to the West of England). The stoppers are still off peak. This change also effects split tickets to the West!

The rules FR are somwewhat complex and become difficult occasionally when trains are rescheduled. You will be fine if you use national rail journey planner. I would be surprised if you travelled on a stopper & had a problem.

 

[didcartfaraway]

The thing is, GWR have said the journey planner is wrong. They told me that in an email in February and they confirmed that to the ombudsman that it is still wrong. They confirmed again in September it is still wrong.

They have no plans to correct the planner, and have told me to carry an email round (see above bold). This seems highly irregular. No expiry or review date was given to me in that email. I guess I'll just carry a copy round with me and continue to use it. It just seems a very odd way to conduct business.

GWR talk about a specific easement for that journey. But I cannot see it anywhere. The advice from ticket offices remains that you can use an off peak ticket on all evening services.

I would prefer not to use a slower train. It isn't a common problem as I am usually on the return portion of an anytime ticket, but revenue protection have given other passengers a difficult time. In response to that GWR have said:

Email 14/1/20: After looking into this for you, I can confirm that tickets for this journey are valid and you were given the wrong information by the staff on the train.

Email 24/1/20: However, on the particular journey that you have travelled on from Didcot Parkway to Reading your ticket had no restrictions due to all services running that day being Off Peak.

This is a weird one as it was a weekday so not sure that email makes any sense

Email 13/2/20:
Thank you for getting in touch with us.

Firstly, I would like to apologise that it took us some time to response back. This is because I investigated further your case so I can come with a solution of it.

I can confirm what the previous advisor said. You can travel with an Off-Peak Ticket on the 17:42 service from Reading to Didcot. There are peak services around the time you travel - 17:01, 18:10 and the last one is at 19:10.

I escalated your enquiry with our Specialist team and they advised that there is ongoing issue with the Journey Planner with no estimate date when it will be rectified. However, you can use this email as a proof that you are travelling with the correct type of ticket in case you are questioned by the Ticket inspector.

 

[Paul Kelly]

The phrase "issue with the Journey Planner" sounds like the GWR staff dealing with your query don't understand that they are totally in control of the restrictions applied by the journey planner, as the data is maintained by their own pricing/revenue team.

At a very rough guess - someone in the pricing/revenue team has the understanding that peak restrictions are to be applied to these off-peak day returns for fast trains departing Reading in the evening peak and has taken encoded these into the restrictions used by the journey planners and noted them in the public facing data at https://nre.co.uk/FR. This is the official source so surely the restrictions do apply. But the intention that restrictions should apply to these fares seems not to be shared or agreed by everyone in the company. And people aren't talking to each other internally.

 

[Haywain]

It's a bit difficult to verify suggestions of a fault with the journey planner when the emails referencing this are from 9 months ago. There may have been an issue that has since been resolved.

 

[bkhtele]

I agree with Haywain: these changes took place after the dates on your email. The easiest method of finding a valid train is as follows (not always 100% accurate as we know)
From Reading in the evening peak if you check journey planner it is showing which trains are peak/off peak. If you find a fast train shown as offpeak I am sure you will be ok travelling on it. You could take a screen shot if you want proof. (alternatively follow the rules on the restriction codes shown on National Rail website)
Didcot to Reading of course does not have a evening peak.

 

[didcartfaraway]

This is the ombudsman decision from 22/7/20 (after May). This really has gone through all the appropriate channels to get to the bottom of it. GWR have told the ombudsman that the online information is wrong and there is a specific easement. Nobody has ever been able to tell me the correct information or give me the actual text for the easement. I agree with you all that every bit of information except the poster points to the requirement for a peak ticket. But GWR station staff are adamant you do not need a peak ticket. People are either being overcharged for those journeys, or being given incorrect advice that leaves them liable to at least a penalty fare.

GWR have told the ombudsman that only the 1701, 1810 and 1910 are peak services. Presumably that would be properly fact checked before despatch to the RO?


The Response

The RSP apologised for the advice given by the onboard ticket inspector. The RSP confirmed that the Consumer’s tickets were valid for the service he boarded and that off-peak return tickets are valid on off-peak services. The RSP added that peak services for the route are 1701, 1810 and 1910.

Having checked with the relevant team, the RSP explained it has been confirmed that ‘there is ongoing issue with the Journey Planner with no estimate date when it will be rectified.’ The feedback was passed to the train manager for the service, in order to update the ticket inspector.

The RSP stated that he may use the email ‘as proof that you are travelling with the correct type of ticket in case you are questioned by the ticket inspector.’

The Decision

In accordance with the burden of proof required in civil cases, it is for the person who asserts their claim to prove the facts in issue. To uphold this case in the Consumer’s favour I must be satisfied on the balance of probabilities that the evidence provided by the Consumer carries more weight than that of the RSP. In other words, the strength of the evidence must tip the scales in the Consumer’s favour.

Firstly, it was noted that the Consumer was not at a detriment following the incident. The Consumer had witnessed a ticket inspector’s interaction with a member of staff, following which the Consumer sought clarification from the RSP.

The RSP stated that the poster had not been removed from the station ‘as the information is accurate. As noted previously, this relates to an easement in place for a specific journey and not the general terms and conditions that the poster advises of.’

Following my objective assessment of the evidence supplied, I have reached the following conclusions. The Consumer was not at detriment following the incident. The RSP confirmed the validity of the ticket. The RSP stated that the Consumer could produce the email if he was ever questioned about his ticket when travelling on the respective service. The RSP had fed back the information to the station manager, in order to inform the appropriate member of staff about the ticket validity.

However, as it is unclear about when the public information will be amended, I consider it rea-sonable for the RSP to update the Consumer when timescales become clearer as to when the online information will be updated.

I guess I can just carry on carrying round an email. But it seems very odd. Thank you all for your advice. I agree with you all. Everything points to there being a requirement for a peak ticket, but GWR and the ombudsman seem to think otherwise, but can't tell me why.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Just for the benefit of anybody else who hasn't realised - it has just dawned on me that RSP is the term the rail ombudsman uses for a TOC.

 

[JB_B]

Just for the benefit of anybody else who hasn't realised - it has just dawned on me that RSP is the term the rail ombudsman uses for a TOC.

Yes - I think they're talking about a "Rail Service Provider" - not a particularly helpful abbreviation in a fares context.

 

[didcartfaraway]

I don't choose the acronyms! All I want is transparency about fares. The poster is correct / was correct at the time, National rail enquiries and journey planners gave differing advice, the TOC / RSP has agreed the online information is wrong. All I want to know is where I can find the truth. Maybe as the film goes, I can;t handle the truth. i don't know. What I do know is that other passengers were being threatened by revenue protection officers on the basis of the online information (they were using the GWR journey planner to show that you did need a peak ticket), and that is wrong, their tickets were valid. That is not fair.

Can I still use an off peak ticket in the evening? We knew the planner was wrong before, is it still wrong, how do I know it has been corrected? I have chased this up with GWR and they say they have no timeframe to correct it (email in September). So that says to me that it is still wrong

As a slight aside I have had a private message telling me to be careful what I post on here as it may lead to 'loopholes' being closed. This is not about loopholes, it is about passengers being told one thing by staff and posters, and then getting a hard time from revenue protection onboard based on acknowledged incorrect information. That has been going on for a long long time.