Difference between a bus and a coach?

[Bletchleyite]

Not under current rules. Coaches must have seatbelts and cannot have standees, and if it is a bus, the PSV Accessibility Regulations are more onerous. Extract from the regulations (full text at www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/1970/pdfs/uksi_20001970_en.pdf)

“bus” means a public service vehicle designed and constructed for the carriage of both
seated and standing passengers which is of category M2 or M3 (as defined in Annex II(A)
to the 1970 Directive) and has a capacity exceeding 22 passengers, in addition to the driver;
“coach” means a public service vehicle designed and constructed for the carriage of seated
passengers only which is of category M2 or M3 (as defined in Annex II(A) to the 1970
Directive) and has a capacity exceeding 22 passengers, in addition to the driver;

Even a Plaxton Panther LE does not carry standees.

Is there any legal reason a bus can't look like a coach, though, subject to accessibility provisions? So those X5 vehicles were perhaps legally buses (pre accessibility regs)?

The difference in the definitions you quote seems to be mostly that standees are allowed or not.

 

[notadriver]

Coaches are not low floor and have luggage space underneath. They also have seatbelts and can do 62 mph. Many modern buses are often limited to 50 mph.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Coaches are not low floor and have luggage space underneath.

The Plaxton Panther LE is low floor and doesn't have luggage space underneath and it seems is legally a coach.

They also have seatbelts and can do 62 mph. Many modern buses are often limited to 50 mph.

This is getting closer.

The point of the thread is to determine if you can have a coach that looks like a bus or a bus that looks like a coach, and what features are potentially mandatory for it to be one or the other.

I should have explained further at the start - basically, can you have standees on something that looks very much like a coach, and how much like a coach would it look? I spawned it from the Trawscymru thread which would seem to potentially need vehicles of that nature.

I think the sub thread spawned from the idea that some of the longer Traws services could do with having toilets, but loss of standee capacity could be limiting to utility. I then mentioned that the old Stagecoach X5 coaches used to have handles for 8 standees in the aisle, so were potentially legally buses?

 

[GusB]

I think the sub thread spawned from the idea that some of the longer Traws services could do with having toilets, but loss of standee capacity could be limiting to utility. I then mentioned that the old Stagecoach X5 coaches used to have handles for 8 standees in the aisle, so were potentially legally buses?

I suspect that the vehicles you are referring to were the Plaxton Premier Interurbans that Stagecoach were ordering in the early to mid 1990s.

They were built on Volvo B10M and Dennis Javelin chassis and were essentially a Plaxton Premier coach shell, but with "bus" features including a proper driver's cab, luggage pen immediately behind the door and no soft trim other than the seats. They also had grab-handles in the front part of the vehicle and were indeed permitted to carry up to 8 standees. Going by the definition quoted by @Man of Kent, these would more than likely be classed as buses, but were more coach-like and were intended for the longer stage-carriage (ie bus) services that Stagecoach had. You mention the X5 (which company?) which I have little knowledge of, but the 10 and 305 Bluebird routes in my neck of the woods were similarly equipped.

Bear in mind that the low-floor concept was very much still in its infancy and step-entrance buses were still common at the time, and the only real nods to accessibility then were the sharks-tooth step edges and brightly coloured handrails!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect that the vehicles you are referring to were the Plaxton Premier Interurbans that Stagecoach were ordering in the early to mid 1990s.

They were built on Volvo B10M and Dennis Javelin chassis and were essentially a Plaxton Premier coach shell, but with "bus" features including a proper driver's cab, luggage pen immediately behind the door and no soft trim other than the seats. They also had grab-handles in the front part of the vehicle and were indeed permitted to carry up to 8 standees. Going by the definition quoted by @Man of Kent, these would more than likely be classed as buses, but were more coach-like and were intended for the longer stage-carriage (ie bus) services that Stagecoach had. You mention the X5 (which company?) which I have little knowledge of, but the 10 and 305 Bluebird routes in my neck of the woods were similarly equipped.

Yep, them's the ones. So they were legally buses I guess?

Which leads me back to the question - is there any reason why, subject to providing accessibility features e.g. a wheelchair lift (or a partial low floor like the Panther LE or the Interdecks), this wouldn't be possible now?

The X5 I was referring to is the Oxford-Cambridge (now Oxford-Bedford) operated by Stagecoach, though the "other X5" in Cumbria I think has in the past used similar vehicles though now uses Gold-spec buses.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Many modern buses are often limited to 50 mph.

This is not really true, certainly not for the past 15 years, most modern buses are limited to 62MPH as standard now.

The point of the thread is to determine if you can have a coach that looks like a bus or a bus that looks like a coach, and what features are potentially mandatory for it to be one or the other.

Yes you can. Stagecoach Highlands older Enviro300s (Ex-Rapsons 56 plates) have 3x2 seating with belts and as such are registered as coaches, because of this they also are required to have tracking on the floor for a wheelchair instead of the usual backrest.

Photo showing the interior of Stagecoach Highlands 27588.

stagecoach 27588 SN56AXS

Explore cameronrobertson8's 16577 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

I suspect that the vehicles you are referring to were the Plaxton Premier Interurbans that Stagecoach were ordering in the early to mid 1990s.

They were built on Volvo B10M and Dennis Javelin chassis and were essentially a Plaxton Premier coach shell, but with "bus" features including a proper driver's cab, luggage pen immediately behind the door and no soft trim other than the seats. They also had grab-handles in the front part of the vehicle and were indeed permitted to carry up to 8 standees. Going by the definition quoted by @Man of Kent, these would more than likely be classed as buses, but were more coach-like and were intended for the longer stage-carriage (ie bus) services that Stagecoach had. You mention the X5 (which company?) which I have little knowledge of, but the 10 and 305 Bluebird routes in my neck of the woods were similarly equipped.

Bear in mind that the low-floor concept was very much still in its infancy and step-entrance buses were still common at the time, and the only real nods to accessibility then were the sharks-tooth step edges and brightly coloured handrails!

Another unique feature of the Interurban was the split windscreen as standard Premiere-320's had a single piece windscreen. The Expressliner model built for National Express work also had a split windscreen, however these were on the taller Premiere-350 body. Only the earlier batches (up to M reg iirc) had the grabrails and were allowed standees.

 

[Beemax]

A coach is a subset of bus, so it can be a bus and coach at the same time. The legal definition of coach refers to max speed (exceeding 60mph)and gvw (exceeds 7.5 Tonnes) but says nothing about appearance or luggage location. It used to be common for coaches to avoid seat belt regs by fitting speed limiters to restrict the speed to 60, therefore becoming just a large bus.

 

[cnjb8]

Did they allow standees on the Stagecoach Wright Eclipse Commuters?

 

[Man of Kent]

because of this they also are required to have tracking on the floor for a wheelchair instead of the usual backrest.

There's no specific requirement for tracking, but there is a requirement in the Regulations (see link in post 1) for a "wheelchair restraint system" for a forward facing wheelchair. Is that the way a user would face in the Enviro 300 (it's not clear from the photo)?

For a rearward facing wheelchair, a backrest is deemed adequate, whether it is a bus or a coach. From my occasional travels on Stagecoach Scottish express routes, most coaches had a backrest, and an additional inertia reel belt that looks as though it attaches to the wheelchair somehow (I've never seen one in active use unfortunately).

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

I think originally, all these passenger road vehicles were termed as coaches, but more frequent ones were called omnibus entirely due to their frequent nature.
Over time the less frequent coach routes became more about hauling luggage, express with limited stops, and overall baulkier than local stopping buses. Of course buses are used on many differing routes nowadays.

Guess there isn't much physical difference, between an old stepped-access bus and a coach, but coaches generally lack stop buttons in my experience.

 

[Geordie driver]

I have no idea of modern regulations, but back in my day a " coach" would be any bus they were allowed to use on private hire, we had a number of double deckers fitted with tachographs which were used as such. Mostly the more modern, well built Olympians.

This was unusual at the time and provided the company with a lot of work as one decker was cheaper to hire than 2 single deckers. I recall doing a Saturday night private hire for a big corporation where I got a 50 quid tip. Happy days.

They were in use as normal buses most of the time.

 

[pdq]

Back in the 70s wasn't there a 'bus grant' available? I think there were versions of coaches available that qualified for the bus grant - one of the differences was that they had double leaf doors rather than a single leaf, and probably a destination display as well. Examples are the Plaxton Panorama: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaxton_Panorama_Elite#Elite_Express and Supreme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaxton_Supreme#Supreme_Express

Elite Express​

All three variants were also produced to the "Express" configuration with wider, two-piece doors. By making the coaches suitable for a dual-purpose role, this allowed operators to take advantage of the British Government's New Bus Grant towards their cost.

Supreme Express​

All of the larger Supremes were available to "express" or "grant" specification with wide doorway and two-piece doors. These variants were badged Supreme Express, Supreme IV Express, Supreme V Express and Supreme VI Express.

Found a few other articles about this: this one (http://archive.commercialmotor.com/...thinking-of-starting-a-new-stage-carriage-ser) refers to a question about the definition of a bus:

You can qualify for a grant towards the cost of a new vehicle if it is used "wholly or mainly as a stage carriage in Great Britain" under Section 32 of the Transport Act 1968. Since 1971 the grant has been 50 per cent of the 'approved capital expenditure.

The dimensions of a bus eligible for grant are clearly laid down. The main ones for high floor single deck are : Wheelbase: 16ft Oin-16ft 2in 4,877mm-4,928mm or 18ft 6in-l&ft 7in 5,639mm-5,664mm or 181t 10in 5,740mm Entrance width 2ft 5in (737mm) minimum clear.

The Act was repealed in the 90s so obviously isn't relevant now, but it gives an idea of the thinking some time ago, some of which may have permeated through.

 

[Ken H]

In the old days there were dual purpose vehicles. sort of half way house between bus and coach. Often with a half way house livery between pure bus and coach. These were used on stage carriage during the week, and express on weekends. Later, they were downgraded to be buses but retaining their high back seats. Coach or bus?

 

[Beemax]

In the old days there were dual purpose vehicles. sort of half way house between bus and coach. Often with a half way house livery between pure bus and coach. These were used on stage carriage during the week, and express on weekends. Later, they were downgraded to be buses but retaining their high back seats. Coach or bus?

Legally, if they could exceed 60mph and be more than 7.5 tonnes gvw, Construction and Use regulations would deem them to be a coach. How high the seat backs are is immaterial

 

[Geordie driver]

Legally, if they could exceed 60mph and be more than 7.5 tonnes gvw, Construction and Use regulations would deem them to be a coach. How high the seat backs are is immaterial

I thought the speed limiting thing was a relatively modern thing?

We certainly had service buses that would exceed 70mph.

 

[Beemax]

Depends what you mean by relatively modern. I think the definition came in in the late 80's

 

[83G/84D]

I have no idea of modern regulations, but back in my day a " coach" would be any bus they were allowed to use on private hire, we had a number of double deckers fitted with tachographs which were used as such. Mostly the more modern, well built Olympians.

This was unusual at the time and provided the company with a lot of work as one decker was cheaper to hire than 2 single deckers. I recall doing a Saturday night private hire for a big corporation where I got a 50 quid tip. Happy days.

They were in use as normal buses most of the time.

Would those be classed as DP (dual purpose) vehicles then? Western National had a lot of vehicles over the years some new as dual purpose or converted to such.

 

[Geordie driver]

Would those be classed as DP (dual purpose) vehicles then? Western National had a lot of vehicles over the years some new as dual purpose or converted to such.

A DP to us would be what looks like a coach with a single narrow door and 3 or 4 steps, ok on a long run but entirely unsuitable for city work, it was a pain in the arse if you got one. Sorry, I didn't know what kind of bus they were. Edit, just checked, possibly a Leyland Leopard.

The deckers were mostly just normal buses with a tachographs fitted.

My understanding ( and I might be wrong) is that any bus/ coach used for hire or reward needs a tachograph unless it is on stage carriage work.

Depends what you mean by relatively modern. I think the definition came in in the late 80's

Modern to me. I seem to recall a TV program following coaches on the motorway at 80mph plus and there being a big hoo har about it.

 

[Kremlin Stooge]

I can just about recall some Bristol Omnibus RE’s that had ECW bus-style body shells but were high-floor (RELH?) and had coach-style seating, along with overhead luggage racks. They went like the clappers, and could certainly match a ‘proper’ coach for motorway speeds, though the ride would not be as smooth!

 

[Robertj21a]

Modern to me. I seem to recall a TV program following coaches on the motorway at 80mph plus and there being a big hoo har about it.

The original Midland Red motorway coaches would easily exceed 80mph.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Many moons ago the First Calderline X36 (limited stop Huddersfield to Halifax) had some journeys on what was in effect a coach, and the drivers of those vehicles would generally only allow as many passengers as there were seats. If you got up to swap seats and the driver spotted you, you might get yelled at.

 

[SteveM70]

I have nothing to offer this thread other than that it reminds me of a very earnest lecturer when I was at university who began a lecture by asking “would anybody like to define a bus?”

Happy days

 

[busesrusuk]

The original Midland Red motorway coaches would easily exceed 80mph.

As did the Scottish coaches too. I remember passing Duple Dominant III bodied Leyland Tigers at over 80mph on the M1 heading north late one night.

Whilst the speed limit for coaches was 70mph they now have limiters to keep them at 62 (100kph). It was an experiment to start with but seems to have become the norm.

Back in the day coaches were built to the "tempo 100" spec which I think was a German initiative to improve the perception of safety of coaches. I can't remember what all the specifications were but may also have included the fitting of ABS. It soon became a "thing" here in the UK as a mark of quality and safety in vehicle design.

 

[SteveM70]

The original Midland Red motorway coaches would easily exceed 80mph.

Actually, I do have something to add. Midland Red used to operate the X67 (I think that was the number) Leicester to Coventry with a bunch of Leyland Leopards with coach seats. This would’ve been around 1980 - certainly after the M69 opened. Me and my dad used to get them quite a lot and took to timing them. A couple of the L reg Leopards were rapid, and sounded fantastic.

As I said before, although in a different context, happy days.