Difference in consist length between railtour and timetabled trains

[Bayum]

I quite often see railtours trailing 15/16 rakes of coaches behind them. Modern day rolling stock is 11/12 (745). Is this solely due to length of coaches? I know the 745s are shorter than Mk3 based stock so 12 coaches works for the stations they stop at. Anyone got any measurements?

 

[JonathanH]

I quite often see railtours trailing 15/16 rakes of coaches behind them. Modern day rolling stock is 11/12 (745). Is this solely due to length of coaches? I know the 745s are shorter than Mk3 based stock so 12 coaches works for the stations they stop at. Anyone got any measurements?

Work on the basis of 20m for Mark 1 / Mark 2 vehicles and 23m for Mark 3 vehicles.

Railtours tend to max out at 13 coaches rather than 15/16 as they need to fit in platforms as much as ordinary trains.

 

[zwk500]

I quite often see railtours trailing 15/16 rakes of coaches behind them. Modern day rolling stock is 11/12 (745). Is this solely due to length of coaches? I know the 745s are shorter than Mk3 based stock so 12 coaches works for the stations they stop at. Anyone got any measurements?

15 would be very rare for a railtour. Most of the time they're load 11/12. Generally Mk1/2s so 2 locos + 12 coaches would be 280m. Railtours are also able to manage short platforms through staffing levels so can stop pretty much anywhere as long as they don't block a junction. Obviously they still have to fit behind signals at terminals/reversal points or fit between the points if they're running round/changing locos etc. There aren't too many platforms 300m+ so anything above load 12 requires careful attention by the planners and signallers.

 

[Ashley Hill]

IIRC the max number of loco hauled passenger vehicles allowed was 15 and 17 for parcel vans.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The longest non-Sleeper domestic "service" train in the UK is the 11 car Pendolino, which I recall being about 265m long, or roughly 12 20m coaches and a loco.

 

[Iskra]

It’s also worth noting that some coaches at each end of railtours aren’t available for passenger use, so the real usable passenger accommodation is often shorter than the rake used*.

*I appreciate this varies according to type of stock used.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

IIRC the max number of loco hauled passenger vehicles allowed was 15 and 17 for parcel vans.

Scottish Region Passenger Train Marshalling Book for 73/74 stated no train to exceed 600 tons or 17 bogie vehicles except where shown in that book or where specially authorised - no mention of parcel vans (just bogie vehicles), but that said any train which did hit the mid teens in length generally had BGs in the formation.

In 78/79 the overnight Glasgow Bristol had 4 BGs 7 sleepers and 6 passenger coaches (max 630 tonnes) departing Carstairs, and the 23.30 Queen St to Inverness loading to 17 ex Perth on certain days in summer had more vans than coaches. On Sundays however the 16.30 Inverness to Edinburgh was load 16 to Perth including just one BG.

And as mentioned on another thread I did travel on The Night Ferry with load 18 in 1974.

 

[Bevan Price]

Longer formations operated in WW2 - there was a well known true tale of an A4 taking 25 coaches out of London Kings Cross, with the loco & several coaches being in the tunnel at the north end of the station.

My own longest train was a Duchess taking 18 coaches on part of the WCML (Preston to Lancaster), but some of the coaches would have been LMSR stock, either 57 or 60 feet long.

 

[hexagon789]

Other than sleeping car trains, 13 was usually the maximum for non-dated trains - timing load E455/D455. The 1974 WCML timetable was based predominantly on E455 loads for the main services, including all the newly electrified through services to Glasgow.

On the ECML it was more variable, you had the D280 'Deltic+8' formations running the tighter timed "Executive" services and then the Anglo-Scottish workings which were usually D385 (11 coaches).

It’s also worth noting that some coaches at each end of railtours aren’t available for passenger use, so the real usable passenger accommodation is often shorter than the rake used*.

*I appreciate this varies according to type of stock used.

Not only that but the seating density is lower for a start in Mk1/2s, and the more "premium" railtours may have a kitchen/diner or even full kitchen car or multiple catering vehicles.

 

[alexl92]

I think 13 is the most I've seen on a modern railtour - but as someone else said, at least one of these would be a support coach or other non-passenger vehicle.
For Class 8 steam locos like 35028, 6233 or 60163, this is manageable and allows the operator/promoter to maximise income from the train. However, very often if the booked loco isn't available, it will be substituted by something like a Black 5 so I think in some cases they try to find a balance between a train long enough to bring in a decent profit but short enough to allow a less powerful loco to substitute.

 

[Romsey]

Just a point over train lengths.
Most stations are built and signalled around the concept of 12 x 20 metre coaches. (That has applied south of the Thames since the 1930's.)
With terminal stations this really restricts the profitability of charters. Many stations do not have the space for special working instructions allowing for the loco beyond the platform starting signal, it would occupy track circuits and lock the job up.

Victoria, Paddington and a lesser extent Euston with longer platforms are therefore more attractive to charter train promoters.
The formation in a 12 car platform would be loco, PO Brake, 9 coaches, top and tail DL. Now allow that 2 of the revenue coaches are kitchen cars for the dining element of the train. Say 5 dining coaches (210 pax) and 2 "enthusiast" (128 pax) and it's obvious why charter fares are climbing steeply.
However the promoter does their sums, "the profit is in the last coach". If you loose the flexibility of an extra vehicle or two, there goes any profit.

 

[Deepgreen]

I quite often see railtours trailing 15/16 rakes of coaches behind them. Modern day rolling stock is 11/12 (745). Is this solely due to length of coaches? I know the 745s are shorter than Mk3 based stock so 12 coaches works for the stations they stop at. Anyone got any measurements?

Very rare to see 15 or 16 coaches on a railtour - are you thinking of the Caledonian Sleeper?! I think the first through working to the Swanage Railway (behind 'Tornado') had 14, but may well be wrong. As others have said tours need to operate within the same infrastructure as any other trains. I believe the longest passenger train I have seen operating is 17 coaches when a 13-vehicle Kent Coast boat train had to assist a failed 4VEP at Orpington, but obviously failures like this will surely have produced all sorts of 'super-trains'.

 

[railfan99]

Just a point over train lengths.
Most stations are built and signalled around the concept of 12 x 20 metre coaches. (That has applied south of the Thames since the 1930's.)
With terminal stations this really restricts the profitability of charters. Many stations do not have the space for special working instructions allowing for the loco beyond the platform starting signal, it would occupy track circuits and lock the job up.

Provided it's not a terminus where the loco has to run round (I'm assuming 'no diesel at the rear'), wouldn't it be possible for passengers in say the last couple of cars to walk through to find a carriage door on the platform?

'Short platforms' are often the case in many countries like mine in Australia (NSW especially) and this is the standard solution: "passengers for station X travel in the front two cars".

 

[zwk500]

Provided it's not a terminus where the loco has to run round (I'm assuming 'no diesel at the rear'), wouldn't it be possible for passengers in say the last couple of cars to walk through to find a carriage door on the platform?

'Short platforms' are often the case in many countries like mine in Australia (NSW especially) and this is the standard solution: "passengers for station X travel in the front two cars".

Short platform working is used a lot with charters for through platforms, but you still need the entire train to be clear of any junctions so it doesn't block other trains.
At certain termini there is more standage than platform length (Cleethorpes comes to mind) but at most termini the signals and points are right on the end of the ramp.
The overwhelming majority of charters operate with a diesel on each end.

 

[Dave S 56F]

It’s also worth noting that some coaches at each end of railtours aren’t available for passenger use, so the real usable passenger accommodation is often shorter than the rake used*.

*I appreciate this varies according to type of stock used.

It's usually if a steam hauled tour the coach immediately behind the loco is the support coach which carries the maintenance team and tools spares E.T.C. incase the loco fails or usually if the tour consists of dining carriages it usually has a catering kitchen coach attached, there is never usually a coach not designated for non passenger coach at the tail-end of the carriage rakes. sometimes a generator coach is attached at the rear of a train but not always.

 

[Iskra]

It's usually if a steam hauled tour the coach immediately behind the loco is the support coach which carries the maintenance team and tools spares E.T.C. incase the loco fails or usually if the tour consists of dining carriages it usually has a catering kitchen coach attached, there is never usually a coach not designated for non passenger coach at the tail-end of the carriage rakes. sometimes a generator coach is attached at the rear of a train but not always.

I thought there were rules about some older coaches (possibly Mk1’s) not being allowed passengers at the end of a formation due to poor crash worthiness? This is often irrelevant however if a loco is on the rear.

 

[zwk500]

I thought there were rules about some older coaches (possibly Mk1’s) not being allowed passengers at the end of a formation due to poor crash worthiness? This is often irrelevant however if a loco is on the rear.

This is usually worked around by marshalling a Brake coach at the rear, with the brake compartment being the crumple zone. I'm not aware of a blanket prohibition though, as sometimes the set gets turned in the course of the charter and I was never aware of problems caused by non-brake carriages being at the very end.

 

[hexagon789]

This is usually worked around by marshalling a Brake coach at the rear, with the brake compartment being the crumple zone. I'm not aware of a blanket prohibition though, as sometimes the set gets turned in the course of the charter and I was never aware of problems caused by non-brake carriages being at the very end.

I understand the requirements are simply fulfilled by either banning passengers from leading and trailing Mk1 vehicles in a formation OR marshalling a newer, more crashworthy style of carriage in those positions (which may then be used by passengers). You often see Mk2s used at the ends of rakes for example.

I understand there are exemptions to this - the Jacobite on the WHL is all Mk1, but speeds are only 45mph max.

 

[Iskra]

I understand the requirements are simply fulfilled by either banning passengers from leading and trailing Mk1 vehicles in a formation OR marshalling a newer, more crashworthy style of carriage in those positions (which may then be used by passengers). You often see Mk2s used at the ends of rakes for example.

I understand there are exemptions to this - the Jacobite on the WHL is all Mk1, but speeds are only 45mph max.

I think a generator coach at one end and a staff/support coach at the other is also a popular formation on the mainline. Many also trail diesels on the rear to fulfill the same function while providing a self-rescue capability.

 

[zwk500]

I think a generator coach at one end and a staff/support coach at the other is also a popular formation on the mainline. Many also trail diesels on the rear to fulfill the same function while providing a self-rescue capability.

Generator coaches are relatively rare - the use of a diesel is much more common, with the vast majority of charters having one on the back, usually because at least one portion will require a reversal.

 

[JonathanH]

You often see Mk2s used at the ends of rakes for example.

That requirement ended some time ago. Passengers routinely travel in mark 1 carriages at the end of charter rakes. Most steam engines will however be trailed by a support coach.

 

[Iskra]

That requirement ended some time ago. Passengers routinely travel in mark 1 carriages at the end of charter rakes. Most steam engines will however be trailed by a support coach.

Is there a source for the dropping of that requirement please?

 

[ZL exile]

Is there a source for the dropping of that requirement please?

Try this link, appears to show the list.

Mark 1 and hinged door rolling stock exemptions | Office of Rail and Road

Applying for an exemption for Mark 1 or hinged door rolling stock.

www.orr.gov.uk

there are others parts on the ORR and RSSB site if you do a search on there for mark I rolling stock