Differences in rolling stock safety regulations in mainland Europe compared to UK

[12C]

I have just been watching a YouTube video about the new European Sleeper service from Brussels to Prague, and one thing I kept noticing (particularly with the recent conflict surrounding WCRC in mind) was how many aspects of the rolling stock involved would breach regulations in the UK. Just on a quick observation, the stock had half height drop down windows in each compartment, with no window bars or locks. On several occasions in the video, passengers were seen with heads/cameras out while the train was at speed, seemingly without any interference from traincrew. The two 1950s vintage sleeping cars in the formation also appeared to have slam doors, I’m not sure if they are fitted with any form of CDL? Also accessiblity wouldn’t match our regulations - the livery did not have contrasting colours for doors, at least (judging by a walkthrough) there was no (or very little) provision for disabled passengers, certainly no level access or PIS screens etc.

There would certainly be no way stock of this type would be allowed to operate in the UK, especially on a scheduled public service, yet this train runs nightly though Belgium, The Netherlands, Germany and The Czech Republic.

I guess my question is, are continental railways too relaxed in their approach to safety/accessibility, or is this more a cultural issue surrounding personal liability?

 

[StephenHunter]

The 1950s sleeping cars were extensively renovated in the 1990s IIRC - converted from their original "20 single compartments on two levels" form as the CIWL Type P to a more conventional design. I believe CDL is present, but only activates when above a certain speed.

The clearances in Europe are generally much greater as well, although I must admit to discomfort when watching that sort of stuff on YouTube.

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

It's not like these are brand-new trains... modern continental trains don't look like this either.

Also look at how DB Fernverkehr recently withdrew its last IC restaurant cars due to safety issues with the doors. It's not like it's not an issue either

 

[DanielB]

Obviously, on mainland Europe regulations for existing trains may be less strict than for new or refurbished trains. There are loads of NS trains as well without contrasting colours for doors for example (but during refurbishment or with new trains doors have contrasting colours). The lack of contrast is even seen more on German and Belgian trains.

Similarly with accessibility: there are no full facilities, but they do offer assistance on trains (and via the national operator of the respective country on stations).
But in general is also partly a difference in culture

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The TSIs (Technical Specifications for Interoperability) we signed up to over the years are common across the EU for new-build stock, so you'd expect conformance across different countries for new fleets.
We don't have to follow those TSIs since leaving the EU, but I'm not aware of any material changes the UK has adopted (other than changing the name to NTSNs - National Technical Specification Notices).
But for older fleets, no doubt each country has its own legacy of "grandfather rights" to work through, much like our slam-door fleets and central locking fitment rules.
Some national differences will always remain, eg rules about fencing of railways (compulsory in the UK but not in many EU countries).

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

IIRC the UK was the only country to require existing stock to be modified to comply with TSI PRM.

 

[12C]

IIRC the UK was the only country to require existing stock to be modified to comply with TSI PRM.

That would certainly explain the difference on the continent, I’ve no doubt new stock is fully compliant but I’ve often been thinking when travelling on older stock elsewhere that there’s no way operators would be able to run anything like it in this country.

Particularly in the case of the new European sleeper, there was clearly no issue running a new “open access” operation with such old coaches. It would be akin to someone getting hold of a few Mk1 sleepers over here and running a long distance intercity service with them in 2024.

As much as I miss older stock sometimes, it’s definitely a good thing we have such an accessible railway.

 

[boiledbeans2]

An exception is the Bernina Express!

Even on the modern Stadler Allegra EMUs, the upper half of some windows can be opened.

There are a lot of tunnels as the route goes through mountains. So you'd better be alert!

I posted a photo here (post 39) where you can see the windows opened:

Bernina Express - advice desired!

1.If you all fancy a glass of wine or two during the day, you can leave the car at your hotel, and reach the train from Varenna to Tirano by ferry from several points across the lake We reviewed this option, but the ferry from Bellagio for train from Varenna isn't really great time wise...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Bikeman78]

Obviously, on mainland Europe regulations for existing trains may be less strict than for new or refurbished trains. There are loads of NS trains as well without contrasting colours for doors for example (but during refurbishment or with new trains doors have contrasting colours). The lack of contrast is even seen more on German and Belgian trains.

Similarly with accessibility: there are no full facilities, but they do offer assistance on trains (and via the national operator of the respective country on stations).
But in general is also partly a difference in culture

I normally make one trip a year to Europe. Sometimes it feels like a different planet. Some trains in Belgium have basic auto announcements but they are very unreliable. Still lots of low platforms. However, I think all trains have contrasting doors, now that all the AM75 and Breaks have been refurbished.

Another big difference is staff at stations. All train dispatch in Belgium and the Netherlands is done by the guard with no assistance from station staff. The exceptions I can think of are Brussel Centraal and Schiphol Airport. I think the former is peak time only.

I watched a pair of VIRM units split at Rotterdam Centraal recently. There was one brief announcement about five minutes before arrival. As soon as the stopped two staff walked from the back to the front of the rear six coach set chasing everyone out. After approx 90 seconds, the doors closed on the rear unit, the train reversed 50cm and the doors opened again to allow the last two people out of the front doors. The doors on the leading unit remained open throughout. The whole process took about three minutes, though the leading four car was very full when it departed for Vlissingen. I think all doors on UK trains are closed in that scenario; I will have to pay more attention next time I see a train split.

 

[DanielB]

The exceptions I can think of are Brussel Centraal and Schiphol Airport. I think the former is peak time only.

The staff at Schiphol is just to spread passengers evenly over trains to Amsterdam and stop them boarding after the guard had initiated departure.

I watched a pair of VIRM units split at Rotterdam Centraal recently. There was one brief announcement about five minutes before arrival. As soon as the stopped two staff walked from the back to the front of the rear six coach set chasing everyone out. After approx 90 seconds, the doors closed on the rear unit, the train reversed 50cm and the doors opened again to allow the last two people out of the front doors. The doors on the leading unit remained open throughout. The whole process took about three minutes, though the leading four car was very full when it departed for Vlissingen. I think all doors on UK trains are closed in that scenario; I will have to pay more attention next time I see a train split.

Whilst splitting the doors are only closed on the set being split off indeed, but when coupling the doors are closed on both sets as that will cause the stationary unit to slightly move.

 

[MisterT]

but when coupling the doors are closed on both sets as that will cause the stationary unit to slightly move.

That is not the case. The doors on the stationary unit are allowed to be open when the trains are being coupled.

 

[Bikeman78]

That is not the case. The doors on the stationary unit are allowed to be open when the trains are being coupled.

I have definitely seen Koplopers attach at Zwolle with doors open on one unit. In the UK, all doors are closed for attachments. Usually for two minutes on modern trains whilst the computer reboots.

 

[DanielB]

I've also seen it the other way around, with doors closed on both parts of the train. That probably also has to do with the fact that nowadays coupling mostly happens to attach a set from the yard to an arriving train, so when the set from the yard arrives first there are no disembarking passengers for whom the doors need to be opened.

Coupling of trains which both carry passengers is relatively rare nowadays. It's quite a few years ago that this happened every 30 minutes in Utrecht, Amersfoort and Zwolle.
But the Dutch process seems anyway to be much faster than the 2 minutes mentioned for the UK.

 

[bahnause]

I've also seen it the other way around, with doors closed on both parts of the train. That probably also has to do with the fact that nowadays coupling mostly happens to attach a set from the yard to an arriving train, so when the set from the yard arrives first there are no disembarking passengers for whom the doors need to be opened.

Coupling of trains which both carry passengers is relatively rare nowadays. It's quite a few years ago that this happened every 30 minutes in Utrecht, Amersfoort and Zwolle.
But the Dutch process seems anyway to be much faster than the 2 minutes mentioned for the UK.

SBB manges to split trains in around or less then a minute. Coupling can be done without stopping, the doors on the stationary units can be open, the coupling unit automatically releases the doors after a few seconds. No additional staff needed.

 

[popeter45]

Also look at how DB Fernverkehr recently withdrew its last IC restaurant cars due to safety issues with the doors. It's not like it's not an issue either

thats a shame to hear, what are they using for the Amsterdam IC now?, remember hearding last year that the restaurant car was a requirement by NS hence why when they needed to use push pull due to diverts (hence no restaurantcar), they had to swap the train at Bad Bentheim?

 

[yorkie]

I guess my question is, are continental railways too relaxed in their approach to safety/accessibility,

Certainly not!

or is this more a cultural issue surrounding personal liability?

It's a cultural issue, and it's lovely to get away from the UK, to places where things are more relaxed, sensible and proportionate. I aim to get away once a month, roughly.

 

[43096]

SBB manges to split trains in around or less then a minute. Coupling can be done without stopping, the doors on the stationary units can be open, the coupling unit automatically releases the doors after a few seconds. No additional staff needed.

One of the most impressive bits of station working I have seen was at Zürich Hbf terminal platforms, when a push-pull double deck sets arrived with 5mins for reversal and departure onwards. Except there were two old style EW I/II coaches on the back for a party of school children. Late departure? Not a bit of it. No sooner had the train stopped than a Ee922 shunter dropped into the platform with two "men with the gloves" - one coupling the Ee922, the other uncoupling from the train. The kids were all very expertly marshalled onto the platform and the two coaches were away in 3 minutes. Cab set up in the now leading driving trailer, there was, of course, a right-time departure.

Railway operating as it should be done.

 

[rvdborgt]

One of the most impressive bits of station working I have seen was at Zürich Hbf terminal platforms, when a push-pull double deck sets arrived with 5mins for reversal and departure onwards. Except there were two old style EW I/II coaches on the back for a party of school children. Late departure? Not a bit of it. No sooner had the train stopped than a Ee922 shunter dropped into the platform with two "men with the gloves" - one coupling the Ee922, the other uncoupling from the train. The kids were all very expertly marshalled onto the platform and the two coaches were away in 3 minutes. Cab set up in the now leading driving trailer, there was, of course, a right-time departure.

Railway operating as it should be done.

DB used to turn around their intercity trains with a loco change in 4 minutes, e.g. in Stuttgart. That was a bit personnel-intensive though.

 

[DanielB]

thats a shame to hear, what are they using for the Amsterdam IC now?, remember hearding last year that the restaurant car was a requirement by NS hence why when they needed to use push pull due to diverts (hence no restaurantcar), they had to swap the train at Bad Bentheim?

The Amsterdam ICs have a temporary sales point for snacks, drinks and coffee/tea in one of the compartments. No warm meals available however.
There certainly is no requirement for a restaurant car from NS, the train swap in your example was necessary due to the driving trailers not being equipped to run into the Netherlands. When I'm not mistaken this is due to their electrical system not being capable of being fed by the Dutch voltage.

SBB manges to split trains in around or less then a minute.

NS is also relatively quick in doing this. With the former so called "NoordOost" IC-services they had up to 15 car trains arriving in Utrecht where they split, had passengers board- and alight, changed direction and the first half departed just 5 minutes after arriving. Obviously also with crew change so the driver didn't have to walk 15 carriages back in those 5 minutes.
Detaching part of the train somewhere en route is even faster and is nowadays also shown (with trainset numbers) on the information displays on the train and the platform. (Although they've relatively quicky removed the animation on the latter showing the detached part drive away)

 

[geoffk]

Certainly not!

It's a cultural issue, and it's lovely to get away from the UK, to places where things are more relaxed, sensible and proportionate. I aim to get away once a month, roughly.

Indeed. Do continental railways divert, delay or cancel trains for trespassers on the line, assuming there's such an offence? Trying not to stray too far from the subject.......

 

[rvdborgt]

Do continental railways divert, delay or cancel trains for trespassers on the line, assuming there's such an offence? Trying not to stray too far from the subject.......

Oh yes they do. I've sat in Brussel-Zuid multiple times while traffic was halted on all 6 tracks when someone was walking their dog or something similar...
Personen im Gleis (Pigs) are also a well-known phenomenon in Germany.

 

[geoffk]

Oh yes they do. I've sat in Brussel-Zuid multiple times while traffic was halted on all 6 tracks when someone was walking their dog or something similar...
Personen im Gleis (Pigs) are also a well-known phenomenon in Germany.

OK thanks.

 

[DanielB]

Indeed. Do continental railways divert, delay or cancel trains for trespassers on the line, assuming there's such an offence? Trying not to stray too far from the subject.......

Ow yes, have been delayed quite a few times between Utrecht and Amersfoort when police was searching the tracks for a reported trespasser. That line is one of the few lines where it happened regulary due to a psychiatric clinic near the railway where patients tended to escape once in a while.

 

[JonasB]

NS is also relatively quick in doing this. With the former so called "NoordOost" IC-services they had up to 15 car trains arriving in Utrecht where they split, had passengers board- and alight, changed direction and the first half departed just 5 minutes after arriving. Obviously also with crew change so the driver didn't have to walk 15 carriages back in those 5 minutes.
Detaching part of the train somewhere en route is even faster and is nowadays also shown (with trainset numbers) on the information displays on the train and the platform.

NS and SBB might be good at it, but when it comes to splitting trains fast, DSB are hard to beat.

 

[Bikeman78]

SBB manges to split trains in around or less then a minute. Coupling can be done without stopping, the doors on the stationary units can be open, the coupling unit automatically releases the doors after a few seconds. No additional staff needed.

The process at Horsham with 377s is much more long winded.
First portion arrives, doors open.
Doors close again as second portion approaches.
Second portion stops, doors open.
Doors close again, second portion attaches.
After approx two minutes, doors open on the whole train briefly before they close again and train departs.

I reckon the doors on the front portion are typically closed for about three minutes during the process.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Some national differences will always remain, eg rules about fencing of railways (compulsory in the UK but not in many EU countries).

I have to admit to finding the fencing of railway lines to be absolutely overkill in the UK, along with the provision of full blown level crossings where a simple stop sign would suffice.

I guess my question is, are continental railways too relaxed in their approach to safety/accessibility, or is this more a cultural issue surrounding personal liability?

More of a cultural issue too, I think. Germany in particular has a very strong "it's your responsibility" mentality.

Indeed. Do continental railways divert, delay or cancel trains for trespassers on the line, assuming there's such an offence? Trying not to stray too far from the subject.......

In Poland, no, it just doesn't happen.

 

[The exile]

Indeed. Do continental railways divert, delay or cancel trains for trespassers on the line, assuming there's such an offence? Trying not to stray too far from the subject.......

I’ve certainly been stuck on a German IC because of “children on the tracks” (for about 45 minutes IIRC).

 

[duesselmartin]

An exception is the Bernina Express!

Even on the modern Stadler Allegra EMUs, the upper half of some windows can be opened.

There are a lot of tunnels as the route goes through mountains. So you'd better be alert!

I posted a photo here (post 39) where you can see the windows opened:

Bernina Express - advice desired!

1.If you all fancy a glass of wine or two during the day, you can leave the car at your hotel, and reach the train from Varenna to Tirano by ferry from several points across the lake We reviewed this option, but the ferry from Bellagio for train from Varenna isn't really great time wise...

www.railforums.co.uk

and yet no heads are chopped off. Maybe one should trust people with common sense?

 

[nwales58]

Do continental railways divert, delay or cancel trains for trespassers on the line,

Delay, definitely.

Currently in Italy. FR9583 now 90 minutes late due to trespassers.

My only significant delay recently in Switzerland was due to trespassers too.

Slight difference between Trenitalia and GB: 7 long distance trains heavily delayed but regionals truncated instead.

 

[railfan99]

and yet no heads are chopped off. Maybe one should trust people with common sense?

A friend from Australia was on Bernina Express recently. He politely warned another group that some were protruding too far out of the carriage. They ignored him.