Differences in style/leadership/etc between the RMT and ASLEF

[SteveM70]

I love that Mick Cash’s socialist utopia has people paid 150 grand a year to fire out press releases that do nothing but condemn any sort of change in their industry

 

[ABB125]

I love that Mick Cash’s socialist utopia has people paid 150 grand a year to fire out press releases that do nothing but condemn any sort of change in their industry

"Fatcat bosses laughing all the way to the bank"
"Gravy train"

"Do as I say, not as I do"?

 

[lordbusiness]

"Fatcat bosses laughing all the way to the bank"
"Gravy train"

"Do as I say, not as I do"?

To quote (ish) Napoleon in the socialist utopia of George Orwell's Animal Farm:

All animals are equal...but some are more equal than others.

 

[Busaholic]

An historical perspective:- during the 1960s/70s/80s NUR was the 'moderate' union and ASLEF the 'extremists'. For well over a decade Sidney Green was General Secretary of the NUR, followed by Sidney Weighell, and Ray Buckton held the equivalent post at ASLEF. Greene and Buckton had a personal antipathy that probably outweighed their respective union positions and, let's not forget, the rail industry wasn't the fragmented mess that it has degenerated into. I probably know less about the two unions than anyone else on here, but I do find it interesting that their perceived political objectives have changed since that time.

 

[A0wen]

An historical perspective:- during the 1960s/70s/80s NUR was the 'moderate' union and ASLEF the 'extremists'. For well over a decade Sidney Green was General Secretary of the NUR, followed by Sidney Weighell, and Ray Buckton held the equivalent post at ASLEF. Greene and Buckton had a personal antipathy that probably outweighed their respective union positions and, let's not forget, the rail industry wasn't the fragmented mess that it has degenerated into. I probably know less about the two unions than anyone else on here, but I do find it interesting that their perceived political objectives have changed since that time.

I think several unions have become more 'militant' as their membership numbers have declined and of those members, the number who are engaged with their union has fallen as well leaving union activities to those who are more obsessive (for want of a better word) about politics and wanting to use the union as a vehicle for political change.

It seemed to take hold in the 70s when you saw figures like Scargill manage to replace more moderate union leaders.

Didn't happen to all unions though - the Electricians remained moderate, indeed a large chunk of the Labour movement hated the likes of Eric Hammond, yet it was under his leadership the EETPU started signing single union agreements and no strike agreements with the likes of Nissan - a measure which served his union and its members very well.

The problem in the RMT in particular seems to be a militant 'Executive' and leadership which is struggling to contain them. There are no shortage of issues upon which they could no doubt command some public support for their cause, but the use of industrial action and defending the in-defensible means they manage to alienate the public.

 

[eldomtom2]

the number who are engaged with their union has fallen as well leaving union activities to those who are more obsessive (for want of a better word) about politics and wanting to use the union as a vehicle for political change.

I remember reading an academic paper written in the 1950s (which I unfortunately can't find at the moment) that said much the same thing. To me it seems likely that the average union worker has never been as politicized as the labour movement would like to make him out to be.

 

[quantinghome]

Ultimately unions are there for their members and to further their interests. Nothing wrong with that of course; it's the entire point of unions existing and it's necessary to achieve a balance between interests of companies and employees. Looking at the rail unions it may be that the perception of 'militancy' is simply a function of the situation the union is facing. Looking in turn at ASLEF and RMT:

ASLEF: when rail traffic was reducing and steam giving way to diesel and electric, the role of the driver was in decline and ASLEF needed to use more aggressive tactics to keep their members' jobs. Hence the fight over many years to keep two drivers on trains and frequent strikes. However privatization and the coincident growth in traffic was a boon for drivers, giving them the upper hand in pay negotiations with the TOCs, and 'militancy' was simply unnecessary.

RMT: the push to eliminate a second safety-critical member of staff is bound to be a big issue for a guards' union. Once that's gone there's nothing in the rule book to stop trains running as driver-only, which would lead to job losses among RMT members. It's very predictable that this would lead to a strong pushback from the RMT. Up until to 1980s the guard's role was never under threat so the union didn't need to fight as hard.

To me it seems likely that the average union worker has never been as politicized as the labour movement would like to make him out to be.

The Labour movement is, and always has been, a coalition between unionised workers and middle-class progressives (some of which are ideologues). Of course there are exceptions but it's largely correct that the latter are more pragmatic than the former. It's all political - how else would you describe organising employees to work together and force their employers to give them better pay and conditions? But there is a difference between the kind of pragmatic politics most unions and union members are into, and a highly ideological politics espoused by a minority of Labour party members. Of course it's all on a sliding scale and there's a good deal of overlap.

 

[eldomtom2]

You are missing my point that the labour movement and the unionised workforce probably do not overlap as much as they are sometimes made out to be. It is a fairly uncontroversial statement that union officials, and to a lesser extent those who vote in union elections, form a minority that is generally further left and has a broader conception of what the union should do than the average union member.

As for "it's all political", this is to ignore things like how "business unionism" is a very dirty word in some quarters.

 

[Robertj21a]

Good to see some excellent objective observations above.

 

[quantinghome]

It is a fairly uncontroversial statement that union officials, and to a lesser extent those who vote in union elections, form a minority that is generally further left and has a broader conception of what the union should do than the average union member.

That's a fair observation.

As for "it's all political", this is to ignore things like how "business unionism" is a very dirty word in some quarters.

I'm using "political" in its broadest sense of how power is distributed within groups and decisions are made, as opposed to Politics in the party political or ideological sense.

 

[mph9937]

You are missing my point that the labour movement and the unionised workforce probably do not overlap as much as they are sometimes made out to be. It is a fairly uncontroversial statement that union officials, and to a lesser extent those who vote in union elections, form a minority that is generally further left and has a broader conception of what the union should do than the average union member.

As for "it's all political", this is to ignore things like how "business unionism" is a very dirty word in some quarters.

It’s a shame that both Unions are quite heavily politicised towards Labour! Yes I fully understand that it’s the unions that keep Labour going and how the foundations were built for the Labour Party.

But surely a union should be just that a UNION! of all people no matter what your political background is.

Whether your male, female, black, white, young, old a union should represent everyone.

I’m sure there are several drivers/guards etc.. on here are proud Tory supporters, what about all those drivers in Scotland who are SNP voters or those in Wales who support Plaid Cymru. There is never a mention of these political parties in the Aslef newsletter that I get, just Labour rammed down your throat all the time and always battering the tories (justified most of the time, granted!)

I just wish all this Left Wing / right wing would stop and represent the driver, guard etc.. that we all are and get the best terms/conditions/ wages/ backing that each and everyone of us deserve!

 

[Bald Rick]

RMT: the push to eliminate a second safety-critical member of staff is bound to be a big issue for a guards' union. Once that's gone there's nothing in the rule book to stop trains running as driver-only, which would lead to job losses among RMT members. It's very predictable that this would lead to a strong pushback from the RMT. Up until to 1980s the guard's role was never under threat so the union didn't need to fight as hard.

But, whereas all members of ASLEF are train drivers, less than 10% of RMT members are guards / conductors etc (at a guess). And the RMT doesn’t just do militant on the issue of DOO!

 

[quantinghome]

But, whereas all members of ASLEF are train drivers, less than 10% of RMT members are guards / conductors etc (at a guess). And the RMT doesn’t just do militant on the issue of DOO!

I don't know what the break down of RMT members is. London Underground staff probably make up a high number.

RMT does appear more inclined to strike. But it seems that these are primarily 'defensive' strikes i.e. against job cuts, changing current jobs to less skilled ones (e.g. guard to revenue collection / passenger assistance), and not 'offensive' strikes such as striking to get massive pay increases. (Happy to be corrected, but that's my impression).

In the theoretical scenario of driverless trains being rolled out in a major way (not actually possible, but that's another discussion), ASLEF would doubtless be taking a harder approach.

 

[the sniper]

Ultimately unions are there for their members and to further their interests. Nothing wrong with that of course; it's the entire point of unions existing and it's necessary to achieve a balance between interests of companies and employees. Looking at the rail unions it may be that the perception of 'militancy' is simply a function of the situation the union is facing. Looking in turn at ASLEF and RMT:

ASLEF: when rail traffic was reducing and steam giving way to diesel and electric, the role of the driver was in decline and ASLEF needed to use more aggressive tactics to keep their members' jobs. Hence the fight over many years to keep two drivers on trains and frequent strikes. However privatization and the coincident growth in traffic was a boon for drivers, giving them the upper hand in pay negotiations with the TOCs, and 'militancy' was simply unnecessary.

RMT: the push to eliminate a second safety-critical member of staff is bound to be a big issue for a guards' union. Once that's gone there's nothing in the rule book to stop trains running as driver-only, which would lead to job losses among RMT members. It's very predictable that this would lead to a strong pushback from the RMT. Up until to 1980s the guard's role was never under threat so the union didn't need to fight as hard.

Entirely agree.

I’m sure there are several drivers/guards etc.. on here are proud Tory supporters,

Plenty of Turkeys vote for Christmas. The (admittedly, few) 'proud Tory' Guards taking part in the recent industrial action was amusing.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't know what the break down of RMT members is. London Underground staff probably make up a high number.

According to their website, they have 83,000 members and are a ‘fast growing’ union.

Last time I looked a few years back they had 90,000 members, and were the ‘fastest growing’ Union.

The time I looked before that, they had 95,000 members.

Straight from the Trump book of public relations!

 

[ABB125]

According to their website, they have 83,000 members and are a ‘fast growing’ union.

Last time I looked a few years back they had 90,000 members, and were the ‘fastest growing’ Union.

The time I looked before that, they had 95,000 members.

Straight from the Trump book of public relations!

Fake news!!!! It's China trying to take over the world!

(Though how this will be achieved by reducing the number of RMT members I'm not sure...)

 

[43066]

Plenty of Turkeys vote for Christmas. The (admittedly, few) 'proud Tory' Guards taking part in the recent industrial action was amusing.

To be fair people vote as they do for a broad spectrum of ideological reasons, often going beyond the job they do. Plenty of train crew vote Tory (I’m one of them). That doesn’t mean I agree with the Tory party’s approach to trade unionism. In a similar way I know remainers who voted for Boris Johnson’s government purely because they were so terrified of Corbyn getting into power.

I completely agree with the comments above re. union members being divorced from the politics of the union leaderships. If only I had a pound for every time I’d heard an eye-wateringly right wing opinion advanced in a train crew messroom!

 

[the sniper]

To be fair people vote as they do for a broad spectrum of ideological reasons, often going beyond the job they do. Plenty of train crew vote Tory (I’m one of them). That doesn’t mean I agree with the Tory party’s approach to trade unionism. In a similar way I know remainers who voted for Boris Johnson’s government purely because they were so terrified of Corbyn getting into power.

It's one thing voting Tory because you think you can afford to, quite another being an 'out and proud' Tory.

 

[43066]

It's one thing voting Tory because you think you can afford to, quite another being an 'out and proud' Tory.

For me it’s ideological (my political views basically align with small government libertarianism, so I’m hardly likely to vote Labour). I don’t generally go around discussing my political views at work, but that’s certainly not because I’m in any way ashamed of them.

Lets face it most ASLEF members these days are property owners who earn fairly high salaries, in the grand scheme of things. If some of them want to play at being champagne socialists that’s up to them!

 

[Busaholic]

I don't know what the break down of RMT members is. London Underground staff probably make up a high number.

RMT does appear more inclined to strike. But it seems that these are primarily 'defensive' strikes i.e. against job cuts, changing current jobs to less skilled ones (e.g. guard to revenue collection / passenger assistance), and not 'offensive' strikes such as striking to get massive pay increases. (Happy to be corrected, but that's my impression).

In the theoretical scenario of driverless trains being rolled out in a major way (not actually possible, but that's another discussion), ASLEF would doubtless be taking a harder approach.

Are some bus workers still represented by RMT? They certainly used to be in some areas.

 

[tiptoptaff]

On the subject of train crew voting Tory - as I don't want to multiquote all the posts:

It's not so much just turkeys voting for Christmas any more. Certainly in the driver grade, and in some places the guard grade, you only have to look at the salaries and the cars in the car park to see that they're not the working class hero roles they once were, doing 6 day weeks for a pittance.

Salaries of 40-65k+ paired with detached houses, frequent holidays and nice cars are decidedly middle class. There are no two ways about it.

Hardly a surprise a huge chunk of a middle class profession vote Tory.

If you honestly believe that train drivers especially, but also some better paid guards, signallers and various other roles in the industry, are working class, when they all fit the lifestyle I've described, you need to seriously rethink.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I find it baffling that the "other" rail union (TSSA), once the most moderate, has become so left wing.
The RMT and TSSA leaders tend to line up together with their vocal demands for the removal of private ownership in the railway.

 

[mph9937]

On the subject of train crew voting Tory - as I don't want to multiquote all the posts:

It's not so much just turkeys voting for Christmas any more. Certainly in the driver grade, and in some places the guard grade, you only have to look at the salaries and the cars in the car park to see that they're not the working class hero roles they once were, doing 6 day weeks for a pittance.

Salaries of 40-65k+ paired with detached houses, frequent holidays and nice cars are decidedly middle class. There are no two ways about it.

Hardly a surprise a huge chunk of a middle class profession vote Tory.

If you honestly believe that train drivers especially, but also some better paid guards, signallers and various other roles in the industry, are working class, when they all fit the lifestyle I've described, you need to seriously rethink.

Absolutely spot on!!

There are several couples who are drivers in our depot each of them earning over £60k so that’s a household income over £120k even more with overtime and they still want to call themselves working class?

The railway like every job has evolved from ‘The good old BR days’ where yes the pay was poor, conditions were poor so the unions were needed. The problem (or not!) is that the unions have done such a good job over the years to get the salary we are in that the job is no longer working class.


Can you imagine saying to someone working in the care home industry who works for minimum wage, 50hr weeks, 5/6 days a week that your working class. Oh! and BTW me and the wife/husband earn over £60k each, driver a brand new Range Rover and going back to my 4 bedroom detached house!! They would just laugh in your face.

On the subject of voting Tory I can bet you that there are more Tory voters working on the railway and on these forums than there ever has been. They just remain quite and don’t shout it from the rooftops like Labour supporters do!!

You only have to look at the few recent comments on here what happens when you might even dare to vote Tory!

• Turkeys voting for Christmas
• Quite another being out and proud tory

So let’s not pull down anyone for their political believes, like I said before we are one big railway family and need to stick together especially through these hard time!!

 

[Domeyhead]

ASLEF do not want nationalisation. They would loose all the power they have, that which has seen massive increases in salaries way beyond any other rail workers salaries.

ASLEF tried to demand massive pay rises under nationalisation and Sir Peter Parker told them to get back to work otherwise he would shut the railway down.

Under privatisation, their short lived general secretary Mick Rix advocated re-nationalisation. He was then booted out at the next election.

ASLEF is about one thing and one thing only. Drivers and how much money they can get for them.

They should not be called a union, a better description would be conservative club.

Really? I wish my local Con Club campaigned for better wages for the people who put money behind the bar!

 

[quantinghome]

Absolutely spot on!!

There are several couples who are drivers in our depot each of them earning over £60k so that’s a household income over £120k even more with overtime and they still want to call themselves working class?

The railway like every job has evolved from ‘The good old BR days’ where yes the pay was poor, conditions were poor so the unions were needed. The problem (or not!) is that the unions have done such a good job over the years to get the salary we are in that the job is no longer working class.

Can you imagine saying to someone working in the care home industry who works for minimum wage, 50hr weeks, 5/6 days a week that your working class. Oh! and BTW me and the wife/husband earn over £60k each, driver a brand new Range Rover and going back to my 4 bedroom detached house!! They would just laugh in your face.

There's a perennial argument about what it means to be working class. I don't have a particular opinion, but it does seem a bit reductive to say it's simply someone who is low paid. Where do you draw the line? What car are you allowed to drive and still be working class? On the other end of the scale some argue that anyone earning a wage or salary, even in a managerial position, is 'working' class because their income is earned rather than coming from investments or property. But this is rather stretching the point.

 

[Bald Rick]

I find it baffling that the "other" rail union (TSSA), once the most moderate, has become so left wing.
The RMT and TSSA leaders tend to line up together with their vocal demands for the removal of private ownership in the railway.

That’s mostly because of the leader.

 

[Wyrleybart]

ASLEF: when rail traffic was reducing and steam giving way to diesel and electric, the role of the driver was in decline and ASLEF needed to use more aggressive tactics to keep their members' jobs. Hence the fight over many years to keep two drivers on trains and frequent strikes. However privatization and the coincident growth in traffic was a boon for drivers, giving them the upper hand in pay negotiations with the TOCs, and 'militancy' was simply unnecessary.

The role of the train driver was not then and still isn't in decline. Perhaps you are confusing the footplate line of promotion with the abolition of steam and all the labour redundant from MPDs. A train goes nowhere without a competent person at the controls and Covid is making that really difficult at some TOCs.

Drivers who had spent the previous twelve months training and passing out, but unable to route learn due to the one in a cab rule. Unable to route learn any other way they have been sat at home since March on a training salary.

 

[Mag_seven]

That’s mostly because of the leader.

He seems to want to try and outdo Cash in terms of hyperbole that is for sure!

 

[eldomtom2]

The role of the train driver was not then and still isn't in decline. Perhaps you are confusing the footplate line of promotion with the abolition of steam and all the labour redundant from MPDs.

So ASLEF didn't try and fail to keep the secondman?

 

[Mintona]

As long as train drivers are getting up at 01.00 to go to work they are working class in my book. I’ll never get my head around members of ASLEF voting for the tories.