Different locos?

[CptnJenks]

In BR steam days, would a train always have been pulled by the same loco or type of loco? So for example, an express, Paddington to Penzance... Would it always have been a King? or would other locos have done it occasionally? (a castle or 2 manors for example?) this info is not available in the working timetable, and i am too young to have seen mainline steam. Thanks for your help.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

In BR steam days, would a train always have been pulled by the same loco or type of loco?

Steam engines were limited by the amount of coal they could carry and the need to clean out the fire and other routine maintenance. Driver and Fireman hours came into it as well.

One of the longest runs was from London to Edinburgh. This required a change of crew part way through for a non-stop run. Hence the corridor tender.

For London to Penzance, I expect they changed engines at Plymouth or Exeter. Kings had restricted routes anyway. Also dining and kitchen facilities didn't always travel the whole distance, so a less powerful engine could be substituted.

 

[70014IronDuke]

In BR steam days, would a train always have been pulled by the same loco or type of loco? So for example, an express, Paddington to Penzance... Would it always have been a King? or would other locos have done it occasionally? (a castle or 2 manors for example?) this info is not available in the working timetable, and i am too young to have seen mainline steam. Thanks for your help.

It varied a bit between regions, but yes, Locos were diagrammed back then, just as they (or HSTs, DMUs etc) are today.

So yes, a train would be diagrammed for a locomotive in a particular power range. On the WR (not my speciality) Kings were usually kept back for the heaviest expresses on the Wolverhampton and Plymouth lines. Of course, sometimes, to suit operating needs, a King (8P in BR terms) might be put on a CAstle (7P) turn, or a Castle or County (6MT) might be put on a Hall (Class 5, I think) turn.

(I believe for some years in the50s, the Bristolian was limited to 7 coaches for a Castle, except on Fridays, when it was increased to 8 coaches, but given a King to manage the extra weight.)

Equally, at times of power shortages, or failures, you could easily get a Hall or perhaps a Grange on a Castle turn - but the train would probbly struggle to keep time if it was fully loaded.

But you would not normally get two Manors on for (say) a Castle, because the reason for Manors' existence was for some power on lightly laid lines - eg the Cambrian - which had strict restrictions on axle loads - Castles, Kings etc nor even Granges were not allowe on the Cambrian.

It was similar on other regions - although whoever actually allocated the locomotives knew the practical - as opposed to the theoretical - vagaries of the locomotives. So, for example, several sub classes of A2s - while in theory equal to their sister A1s and A4s - were not liked on express passenger work, and generally found themselves on less onerous turns.

I think enginemen actually preferred an A3 (theoretically only a 7P) or even V2 (6 MT I think they were) to some of the A2s.

As diesels came in, you had some unusually powerful diagramming. For example, on the Southern come 1962, you might find a Schools - a 3-cylnder express passenger 5P rating - on a Redhill-Reading Southern train of 3 or 4 carriages which could have been comfortably handled by an N or U 2-6-0. Likewise, I once saw a Jubilee - it was Atlas, I think - on a three-coach Northampton - Leicester local at Wellingborough. Such super power would not have normally been seen even a year earlier.

 

[CptnJenks]

So yes, a train would be diagrammed for a locomotive in a particular power range. On the WR (not my speciality) Kings were usually kept back for the heaviest expresses on the Wolverhampton and Plymouth lines. Of course, sometimes, to suit operating needs, a King (8P in BR terms) might be put on a CAstle (7P) turn, or a Castle or County (6MT) might be put on a Hall (Class 5, I think) turn.

Is there a way of finding out the locos that would have been used?

 

[70014IronDuke]

Is there a way of finding out the locos that would have been used?

I'm not sure what you mean exactly. If you mean the actual locomotive by number, not normally, unless you can find a photo of the train in a book or magazine.

But if you have a working timetable, you can see the type diagrammed.

I'm not sure about how the Wetern allocated locomotives (Taunton will be along in a minute) - but on the Midland you had trains given standard timings.
So, for example, let's say (theoretical example) there was an 08.00 Liverpool - Euston. It might be given XL (limited load express) timings in the working timetable. For XL timings, an 8P (duchess) might be limited to 380 tons, a Scot, rebuilt Patriot or Brit (7) to 350 tons, a Jubilee (6P) to 330 tons and a Black 5 to 305 tons.

Of course, control knew that this train would normally be loaded to 380 tons, so it would be diagrammed for a Duchess or "Lizzie" every day. Such trains would take priority. Down the pecking order, a less onerous turn might mean a Black 5 had to take 380 tons, but the timings would be easier. If the train was more than 380 tons, the driver could ask for a pilot locomotive in order to keep time.

 

[CptnJenks]

So for example there was a 07:00 Newton Abbot to Goodrington Sands class B passenger train. What would have been the loco, and would a similar loco have hauled it every day or could it have changed (so a hall one day and a 45xx tank another)?

 

[70014IronDuke]

So for example there was a 07:00 Newton Abbot to Goodrington Sands class B passenger train. What would have been the loco, and would a similar loco have hauled it every day or could it have changed (so a hall one day and a 45xx tank another)?

In short, I don't know the example you cite - but yes, a similar loco would have normally worked most trains each day. A Hall and a 45XX were very different locos, and in stable times and for the vast majority of trains, no, it would not have a Hall one day and a 45XX the next. There were exceptions - certain trains out of Swindon or Crewe, for example, were often used to test ex-works locomotives. These were typically stopping trains to places like Reading or Didcot (in the case of Swindon) or Shrewsbury in the case of Crewe. So you might get a Castle on the train one day, and a 43XX the next and - possibly - a 45XX the next. (BUt a 45XX had limited power, water and coal capacity, so it may have not been suitable for even one of these trains.) But in most cases, let's say the first stopping passenger train out of Penzance to Plymouth, it would have been a Grange (say) every day of the week most weeks. Penzance would have an adequate allocation of Granges for the trains diagrammed for them. But at critical times, peak holiday or the broccoli season (a very important time for heavy traffic back in the day) they might have to diagram their Granges for special traffic, and make do with a 43XX on the stopping train. This is just a theoretical example - it's not a route I know.

 

[CptnJenks]

In short, I don't know the example you cite - but yes, a similar loco would have normally worked most trains each day. A Hall and a 45XX were very different locos, and in stable times and for the vast majority of trains, no, it would not have a Hall one day and a 45XX the next. There were exceptions - certain trains out of Swindon or Crewe, for example, were often used to test ex-works locomotives. These were typically stopping trains to places like Reading or Didcot (in the case of Swindon) or Shrewsbury in the case of Crewe. So you might get a Castle on the train one day, and a 43XX the next and - possibly - a 45XX the next. (BUt a 45XX had limited power, water and coal capacity, so it may have not been suitable for even one of these trains.) But in most cases, let's say the first stopping passenger train out of Penzance to Plymouth, it would have been a Grange (say) every day of the week most weeks. Penzance would have an adequate allocation of Granges for the trains diagrammed for them. But at critical times, peak holiday or the broccoli season (a very important time for heavy traffic back in the day) they might have to diagram their Granges for special traffic, and make do with a 43XX on the stopping train. This is just a theoretical example - it's not a route I know.

Ok thanks. I guess there is no way of knowing what the loco would have been then?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Ok thanks. I guess there is no way of knowing what the loco would have been then?

Unless someone recorded it at the time. Which they probably did, so contemporary magazines may have some information. There's also any number of railway history and photography books that have records directly or indirectly. You can also try asking on model railway sites as some modellers like to accurately recreate the past.

 

[fitz]

Kings were banned west of Plymouth due to weight restrictions over the Royal Albert Bridge . They have worked beyond Plymouth in recent times .
Another part of the network from which Kings were banned was west of Cardiff . The now preserved 6023 and 6024 were initially sold to a scrap yard in Bridgend ( I think ) . Somebody in Control picked up on the ban west of Cardiff and they were re-sold to Woodhams in Barry .So we have to thank whoever it was who noticed this for the fact we now have 3 preserved Kings rather than just the one - 6000.

 

[30907]

The various books by Xpress Publishing have a lot of the sort of detail you are asking for. There's one called Operation Torbay.

In the case of the 7.0am Newton-Paignton, it looks from the timetable to have returned promptly at 7.45am to Newton (and I guess attached to the 7.15am Plymouth-Paddington).

There was no opportunity to turn a tender loco as Goodrington didn't get a turntable until the late 50s, and in any case barely time. So I would be very surprised to see a tender loco on it, and most likely a 61xx or similar rather than a 45xx.

However, in this particular case a tender loco used as a substitute might run either way round depending on its next working from Newton. So, actually, might a tank loco.

And as 70014IronDukesays, on summer Saturdays anything might happen, including main line engines running tender first to or from Paignton or Goodrington.

Another distinctive feature at Newton was the regular use of SR locos on Exeter-Plymouth stoppers for route retention purposes.

 

[CptnJenks]

Unless someone recorded it at the time. Which they probably did, so contemporary magazines may have some information. There's also any number of railway history and photography books that have records directly or indirectly. You can also try asking on model railway sites as some modelers like to accurately recreate the past.

I am doing stuff on train simulator, and want it to be accurate.

 

[CptnJenks]

The various books by Xpress Publishing have a lot of the sort of detail you are asking for. There's one called Operation Torbay.

In the case of the 7.0am Newton-Paignton, it looks from the timetable to have returned promptly at 7.45am to Newton (and I guess attached to the 7.15am Plymouth-Paddington).

There was no opportunity to turn a tender loco as Goodrington didn't get a turntable until the late 50s, and in any case barely time. So I would be very surprised to see a tender loco on it, and most likely a 61xx or similar rather than a 45xx.

However, in this particular case a tender loco used as a substitute might run either way round depending on its next working from Newton. So, actually, might a tank loco.

And as 70014IronDukesays, on summer Saturdays anything might happen, including main line engines running tender first to or from Paignton or Goodrington.

Another distinctive feature at Newton was the regular use of SR locos on Exeter-Plymouth stoppers for route retention purposes.

Cool i will look into that. Have tried googling pictures, But it isn't the best help.

 

[Bevan Price]

There is no simple answer to the question. Kings were not allowed in Cornwall (too heavy, I believe), so whilst a King could work between Paddington & Plymouth, it would be replaced at Plymouth, probably by a County, Castle, Hall or Grange.

Elsewhere, main line locos sometimes did "fill-in" turns before or after doing a main line run. So, for example an Edge Hill Royal Scot (or Rebuilt Patriot) would do Liverpool to Leeds & back (on Newcastle services), and then be used on a local train from Liverpool to Preston & return.

Also in my local area, there were some complex diagrams. For example there were:-

17:15 (SSuX) Preston to Wigan NW, the loco & stock continuing on 18:00 (SuX) Wigan - Liverpool Lime St. For some years in the 1950s, this was worked by Preston depot (MFO), Crewe North (TuWThO), and Springs Branch on saturdays.
Preston used anything from a Class 2 2-6-0 or 4-4-0 up to a Jubilee or Patriot.

Crewe North often used it for running-in purposes, so anything from a Black 5 to a Royal Scot was possible, plus an occasional Britannia.

Springs Branch usually used a Black 5 or a Class 4MT 2-6-4T.

Depots might also "borrow" locos that had arrived from other depots, one of the most unusual events was when Preston turned out a Bescot 4F 0-6-0.


Browsing some of the many steam era photo albums will show examples of "what worked what", and you may find some web photo sites provide useful info, e.g.

http://www.davidheyscollection.com/index.htm

 

[70014IronDuke]

I am doing stuff on train simulator, and want it to be accurate.

You could try joining and asking the GWR yahoo group.

<[email protected]>

If you asked what worked the Limited from Plymouth on 15 November 1959 you are likely to find someone who knows not only the specific locomotive, but the consist, guard's name and whether or not it was on time at Paddington.

 

[CptnJenks]

You could try joining and asking the GWR yahoo group.

<[email protected]>

If you asked what worked the Limited from Plymouth on 15 November 1959 you are likely to find someone who knows not only the specific locomotive, but the consist, guard's name and whether or not it was on time at Paddington.

I will do. Thanks

 

[DerekC]

From memory of watching steam trains go by (mainly on Liverpool St - Cambridge and ECML) the diagramming was regular (so you got used to what locomotive class would be on which train) but there were frequent exceptions and oddities. And don't forget that "the steam age" was a long time and even in the BR steam years things were constantly changing - pre-grouping classes being withdrawn, standard classes coming in and older locos being demoted to secondary duties, so what was an oddity when first spotted might rapidly became the norm.

 

[CptnJenks]

From memory of watching steam trains go by (mainly on Liverpool St - Cambridge and ECML) the diagramming was regular (so you got used to what locomotive class would be on which train) but there were frequent exceptions and oddities. And don't forget that "the steam age" was a long time and even in the BR steam years things were constantly changing - pre-grouping classes being withdrawn, standard classes coming in and older locos being demoted to secondary duties, so what was an oddity when first spotted might rapidly became the norm.

Ok. So if i have a service in the timetable (which hasn't got the Loco info) would it make a difference what loco i put on it, so long as it seems suitable? (I.E. a King or Castle wouldn't do a branch train, just as a 45XX tank wouldn't do an express). So a branch stopping train could have a suitable tank or maybe a Hall, Grange or Manor etc, but it wouldn't matter which?

 

[30907]

Ok. So if i have a service in the timetable (which hasn't got the Loco info) would it make a difference what loco i put on it, so long as it seems suitable? (I.E. a King or Castle wouldn't do a branch train, just as a 45XX tank wouldn't do an express). So a branch stopping train could have a suitable tank or maybe a Hall, Grange or Manor etc, but it wouldn't matter which?

Depends how much of a realist you want to be.

To take Kingswear, you could in theory use anything that was passed for the line (and in this case IIRC that's pretty much any GW loco) AND would have been seen in the area (even occasionally - main line locos frequently ended up away from home and got "borrowed" for local duties). And workings could go pearshaped for all sorts of reasons.

However, a responsible shedmaster would try to operate economically - so if one of his 61xx would do the job (the whole working for the day, not just one train) and was available, that would be preferred. Equally, a tender engine and crew with time to fill in between main line duties might fill in - if turnrounds weren't too tight. Or of course, the engine for a local to Kingswear might be returning on the Torbay Express.

 

[CptnJenks]

Depends how much of a realist you want to be.

To take Kingswear, you could in theory use anything that was passed for the line (and in this case IIRC that's pretty much any GW loco) AND would have been seen in the area (even occasionally - main line locos frequently ended up away from home and got "borrowed" for local duties). And workings could go pearshaped for all sorts of reasons.

However, a responsible shedmaster would try to operate economically - so if one of his 61xx would do the job (the whole working for the day, not just one train) and was available, that would be preferred. Equally, a tender engine and crew with time to fill in between main line duties might fill in - if turnrounds weren't too tight. Or of course, the engine for a local to Kingswear might be returning on the Torbay Express.

OK, but would that information be available? or is it just guess work from the working timetable?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

OK, but would that information be available?

At somewhere popular like the Kingswear branch, there would have been spotters and photographers crawling all over it. The only real problem is that most of their material was first published many years ago and doesn't show up on an internet search.

 

[CptnJenks]

At somewhere popular like the Kingswear branch, there would have been spotters and photographers crawling all over it. The only real problem is that most of their material was first published many years ago and doesn't show up on an internet search.

That is one of the problems I'm having. And Google being a pain like "oh look a train, let's find other images of trains... Here is one from Birmingham, and one from Scotland. Those along with these from Kent should be fine. Let's recommend those...". And it's a pain....

 

[30907]

OK, but would that information be available? or is it just guess work from the working timetable?

The info is almost certainly available, possibly via the sources already suggested, but not necessarily online. Sorry!

 

[EbbwJunction1]

It might be worth you contacting one of the major railway societies - for example the Railway Correspondence & Travel Society (RCTS) and asking if they (or one of their members) can help you.

I haven't got any contacts, but if you google RCTS, you'll find them. They have local branches as well, so you might be able to contact someone in the area who knows the answers to the questions that you're asking.