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Different traction types and drivers.

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NSE

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Just casually wondering, how easy would it be for a driver to be put in the cab of stock they don’t sign and get it working? This is purely hypothetical and just random railway wonderings, but could say, a SWR driver who is trained on a 455 be put in the cab of a 357 and get it working? My own roughly educated guesses would suspect that family types might have similarities (a 357 driver could possibly find familiarities with a 377 for example). But how much would drivers be able to do? Would electric vs diesel make a difference? Would they be able to move it but would be knackered if there was some troubleshooting to do? Would be interested to know.
 
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gabrielhj07

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Many of the controls will be similar across most types of stock, Reverser, AWS, Brake, etc, so they could probably get it moving. Having said that, there would be more difference in preparing the train 'from cold', which would be pretty difficult unless specifically trained.

Of course even if they got it moving, the train might handle differently so would need some practice.
 

507 001

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I suspect that the newer the train, the harder it would be to get it moving.
 

DanNCL

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That would depend on the train. If it had a combined power handle and was already set up, it shouldn’t be too difficult to get moving.

Anything with a tap changer would be a completely different story - if the driver has never used a tap changer before and doesn’t know how they work they’d have no chance of getting it moving.
 

coxxy

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In theory, I reckon a DMU driver would get another Dmu driving.. an EMU driver could get an EMU going.. but try and stick someone on a loco that has no clue and it probably won't be going anywhere..
 

NSE

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Interesting responses so far. Thank you. Kinda what I expected. Also what’s a tap changer? Hadn’t considered locos so that’s an interesting point.
 

ExRes

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I was always amused by the look on many drivers faces when they saw the cab of a 73 for the first time, there could be a lot of head scratching to get one of them going
 

hexagon789

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Interesting responses so far. Thank you. Kinda what I expected. Also what’s a tap changer? Hadn’t considered locos so that’s an interesting point.
A tap-changer is the control method used in older AC locos (Classes 81-87 for example) and some older AC EMUs (Class 303, 309 for instance).

On these locos the power handle controls the motor voltage, provided from a number of "taps" on the secondary coil of the main transformer, which is increased or decreased in fixed steps to provide more or less power in the motors. (This is different to DC locos/EMUs which used resistance control with camshafts.)

On 81-85s there are 38 voltage steps plus two weak fields notches (40 power settings)

On standard 86s there are 38 voltage steps and no weak field, the motors were designed to provide sufficient current at higher speeds without impairing performance.

On 87s and the 86s with Class 87-style motors/transformers there are 38 voltage steps and one weak field step. The motors on these are in a permanent weakened field of ~17% iirc, the weak field notch adding a further ~19% field weakening.

The power handle has the following positions:
OFF - tap changer runs down if not already done so, no voltage
Run-down - tap changer automatically reduces taps to Zero
Notch-down - runs tap changer down one notch, sprung position returning to "Hold"
Hold - maintains current tap-changer setting
Notch-up - increases voltage tap by one notch, sprung back to "Hold"
Run-up - Tap changer automatically increases voltage taps to full.

Ordinarily, getting under way, the driver adds one or two notches by using the "Notch-up" position. Then when underway adds notch by notch, paying attention to the ammeter (green is continuous rating, yellow is the one-hour rating and used while accelerating, red is the overload and should be avoided but it is permissible to briefly allow the ammeter to enter the red so long as no further notches are added until the meter drops well back into the yellow sector).

Run-up is used to quickly add power at speed, such as after passing a neutral section or returning to linespeed after a speed restriction.

Notch up/down are used to fine control the power as necessary to maintain running speed.

Run-down is used to quickly reduce power, such as in preparation to shutting off completely.

It is permissible to go straight to "OFF" but doing so from a high voltage step can result in severe jolts. Also, the tap changer will automatically run down in this position and power cannot be reapplied and the tap changer run-up, until it has completed running down.

Depending on the equipment fitted, it could take over 35 seconds to fully run up or down the tap changer, the older locos taking longer than 86/87s generally.


On EMUs with this system it is massively simplified, with 4 power notches on the handle:

1 - Shunt, first voltage tap only
2 - Half-voltage or half power, enough voltage taps to provide half the rated voltage are notched in
3 - Full-voltage, all voltage taps are added
4 - Weak field, as above but the weak field contact is opened when the motor current has fallen to a prescribed level after all the voltage taps have been added.

On 303s there are 11 voltage taps and one with weak field added giving 12 notches:

Notch 1 gives 1 notch
Notch 2 gives 7 notches
Notch 3 gives 11 notches (ie all voltage taps)
Notch 4 gives 12 notches (all 11 voltage taps, plus weak field)

Note that, unlike tap changer locos, on the EMUs you cannot reduce the power by going back a step. You have to shut off completely and re-open the handle to the required position. You can however hold a certain voltage tap by allowing the tap changers to notch-up to a certain tap and then moving the handle back to "Shunt"; in poor adhesion hand-notching can be achieved in the same way as on locos.

Standard practice in good conditions was to simply move the handle on EMUs straight to position "4" where road conditions and permitted speed allowed it. The automatic notching equipment would run up the taps at a defined rate with each successive tap opened when motor current fell to a prescribed level.
 

gabrielhj07

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A tap-changer is the control method used in older AC locos (Classes 81-87 for example) and some older AC EMUs (Class 303, 309 for instance).

On these locos the power handle controls the motor voltage, provided from a number of "taps" on the secondary coil of the main transformer, which is increased or decreased in fixed steps to provide more or less power in the motors. (This is different to DC locos/EMUs which used resistance control with camshafts.)

On 81-85s there are 38 voltage steps plus two weak fields notches (40 power settings)

On standard 86s there are 38 voltage steps and no weak field, the motors were designed to provide sufficient current at higher speeds without impairing performance.

On 87s and the 86s with Class 87-style motors/transformers there are 38 voltage steps and one weak field step. The motors on these are in a permanent weakened field of ~17% iirc, the weak field notch adding a further ~19% field weakening.

The power handle has the following positions:
OFF - tap changer runs down if not already done so, no voltage
Run-down - tap changer automatically reduces taps to Zero
Notch-down - runs tap changer down one notch, sprung position returning to "Hold"
Hold - maintains current tap-changer setting
Notch-up - increases voltage tap by one notch, sprung back to "Hold"
Run-up - Tap changer automatically increases voltage taps to full.

Ordinarily, getting under way, the driver adds one or two notches by using the "Notch-up" position. Then when underway adds notch by notch, paying attention to the ammeter (green is continuous rating, yellow is the one-hour rating and used while accelerating, red is the overload and should be avoided but it is permissible to briefly allow the ammeter to enter the red so long as no further notches are added until the meter drops well back into the yellow sector).

Run-up is used to quickly add power at speed, such as after passing a neutral section or returning to linespeed after a speed restriction.

Notch up/down are used to fine control the power as necessary to maintain running speed.

Run-down is used to quickly reduce power, such as in preparation to shutting off completely.

It is permissible to go straight to "OFF" but doing so from a high voltage step can result in severe jolts. Also, the tap changer will automatically run down in this position and power cannot be reapplied and the tap changer run-up, until it has completed running down.

Depending on the equipment fitted, it could take over 35 seconds to fully run up or down the tap changer, the older locos taking longer than 86/87s generally.


On EMUs with this system it is massively simplified, with 4 power notches on the handle:

1 - Shunt, first voltage tap only
2 - Half-voltage or half power, enough voltage taps to provide half the rated voltage are notched in
3 - Full-voltage, all voltage taps are added
4 - Weak field, as above but the weak field contact is opened when the motor current has fallen to a prescribed level after all the voltage taps have been added.

On 303s there are 11 voltage taps and one with weak field added giving 12 notches:

Notch 1 gives 1 notch
Notch 2 gives 7 notches
Notch 3 gives 11 notches (ie all voltage taps)
Notch 4 gives 12 notches (all 11 voltage taps, plus weak field)

Note that, unlike tap changer locos, on the EMUs you cannot reduce the power by going back a step. You have to shut off completely and re-open the handle to the required position. You can however hold a certain voltage tap by allowing the tap changers to notch-up to a certain tap and then moving the handle back to "Shunt"; in poor adhesion hand-notching can be achieved in the same way as on locos.

Standard practice in good conditions was to simply move the handle on EMUs straight to position "4" where road conditions and permitted speed allowed it. The automatic notching equipment would run up the taps at a defined rate with each successive tap opened when motor current fell to a prescribed level.
This is an excellent explanation, thank you!

This video shows a tap changer in operation.
 

NSE

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Thank you very much for that explanation. Not gonna lie, will be googling a few bits to make total sense. Thank you, much appreciated!
 

hexagon789

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Thank you very much for that explanation. Not gonna lie, will be googling a few bits to make total sense. Thank you, much appreciated!
You're very welcome. I can try and explain any individual terms if you wish, if they are still a bit too technical, not a problem.
 

Wyrleybart

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Worth mentioning that on AC traction (don't know about juice rail) there is a white line light somewhere on the desk which indicates power in the OLE. Without a lit line light you ain't going anywhere !!! The line light goes out when you pass through a neutral section, and each neutral consists of basically plastic instead of copper. Neutrals are very roughly 20odd miles apart and with older locos the tap changer should be zero'd when passing through, so the driver had to consider each and every neutral with regard to running the power off. As protection each neutral section has APC magnets located on the sleeper ends either side of the neutral section, and these interact with AC traction to ensure the circuit breaker is open as it passes through. Anyone with memories of class 302-312 will recall a clunk clunk as the magnets interacted.
 

hexagon789

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Worth mentioning that on AC traction (don't know about juice rail) there is a white line light somewhere on the desk which indicates power in the OLE. Without a lit line light you ain't going anywhere !!! The line light goes out when you pass through a neutral section, and each neutral consists of basically plastic instead of copper. Neutrals are very roughly 20odd miles apart and with older locos the tap changer should be zero'd when passing through, so the driver had to consider each and every neutral with regard to running the power off. As protection each neutral section has APC magnets located on the sleeper ends either side of the neutral section, and these interact with AC traction to ensure the circuit breaker is open as it passes through. Anyone with memories of class 302-312 will recall a clunk clunk as the magnets interacted.
The third rail doesn't have neutral sections, but there are gaps over points, crossings and things.

Thyristor trains could theoretically be driven through neutral sections without shutting off power, the APC equipment doing everything automatically, but for reasons of comfort shutting off is recommended.

I remember reading in an old Railway Magazine Practice and Performance column, about the 90s when new, that Tap-changer locos would lose on average 6-8mph at 100 running down, coasting and notching back up through a neutral section. A 90 by comparison would lose about 1mph, if that.
 

NSE

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You're very welcome. I can try and explain any individual terms if you wish, if they are still a bit too technical, not a problem.
I think I’m quite surprised by the locos having circa 40 steps and the MU’s having around 12 (if I’ve read that correctly haha!). Seems like such a big difference between then
 

gabrielhj07

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Worth mentioning that on AC traction (don't know about juice rail) there is a white line light somewhere on the desk which indicates power in the OLE. Without a lit line light you ain't going anywhere !!! The line light goes out when you pass through a neutral section, and each neutral consists of basically plastic instead of copper. Neutrals are very roughly 20odd miles apart and with older locos the tap changer should be zero'd when passing through, so the driver had to consider each and every neutral with regard to running the power off. As protection each neutral section has APC magnets located on the sleeper ends either side of the neutral section, and these interact with AC traction to ensure the circuit breaker is open as it passes through. Anyone with memories of class 302-312 will recall a clunk clunk as the magnets interacted.
DC trains also have a line light.
 

Doomotron

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I think it can be summed up by how people play Train Simulator. I can basically drive every train, but I am not aware of the details of each train, so setting them up from cold will be an issue, as will setting up different power systems, which could be a screen UI like in the ICE 3, a weird dial like in the Class 92, or buttons like in an Electrostar. Similarly, somebody who learns to drive will have a general understanding of every car, but wouldn't be able to go into detail with something they're not familiar with.

In fairness, a driver being put in a train they're not signed for that's already been set up and which won't go wrong isn't going to be that problematic most of the time.
 

skyhigh

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In fairness, a driver being put in a train they're not signed for that's already been set up and which won't go wrong isn't going to be that problematic most of the time.
I'm not so sure that's true. I can think of several anomalies that would catch someone out who didn't know the traction
 
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