Differentiating first class

[All Line Rover]

One of the problems on Southern services is that [first class is] often not partitioned off and has the same seats as Standard. This rather limits its credibility, particularly off-peak when the price differential is massive.

If it was partitioned off and had a clear value proposition (i.e. one seat fewer across the width of the train than Standard) it might seem less ridiculous.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...in-first-class-row.166990/page-3#post-3544961

If the only purpose of first class seats, on commuter trains where the first class 'accommodation' has identical seating and facilities to standard class and no partition door(s), is to guarantee a seat, why bother designating said seats as first class on any train where standard class is not standing room only? What advantage do these seats offer when designated as first class?

 

[Kite159]

Because some commuters will pay extra for the extra likelihood of getting a seat

 

[tsr]

It would probably be better to differentiate it under a title of "Premium Seating" or something similar. You could, in fact, be abundantly clear about the levels of First Class provision by having a national network-wide branding scheme. For example, Premium Seating would offer little more than a guaranteed seat and maybe power sockets or bigger tables. Business Class (like Chiltern's Business Zone) would offer a much-improved seating layout and a segregated area but few if any complementary items. First Class would offer the full monty in terms of free food and drink, dedicated staff and guaranteed free wifi.

Premium Seating would obviously still have its enforcement issues, but perhaps would be treated somewhat differently - acknowledging it is effectively only a paid reservation system, in the way that First Class in the southeast basically already is. I would suggest a "pay for it or leave it" type of attitude to enforcement - with a flat or zonal fare which would only be discounted if you were (say) a Gold Card season ticket holder. It would be hard to know exactly when, if the person responsible for charging the fare couldn't get through the train (eg. due to overcrowding), it would mean that it wouldn't/shouldn't/couldn't be enforced.

Any civilised society should be able to cope with this sort of thing - the deckchairs in some of the big London parks are able to be hired on the same principle. You can rest for a moment or two, but any longer and someone will come up to you and ask you to pay, or explain that you need to go away.

I suggest there would be a multi-purpose area for wheelchair users, luggage and so on - and there would be lockable foldable seats for crew in that area. Something like the arrangement of the wheelchair area on a 387, but a bit smaller, wouldn't go amiss. The seats have fold-down tables available and are relatively comfortable despite being foldable ones.

 

[Hadders]

If I was doing a journey like Stevenage - Carlisle in 1st class I'd want to be able to use 1st class on the connecting service to Kings Cross.

 

[yorkie]

If I was doing a journey like Stevenage - Carlisle in 1st class I'd want to be able to use 1st class on the connecting service to Kings Cross.

True but then the current price should reflect the fact it's Standard only between Carlisle and Newcastle.

The relevant 1st Anytime Return fares are only £7 apart, and that could rise if Northern gained 1st on that route. (In fact for your £7 you'd also gain extra validity, but that's another story!)

 

[Hadders]

I was thinking that if I'd paid £580 for an Anytime 1st Return between Stevenage and Carlisle (not that I ever would pay that) then I'd want to sit on something a bit more comfortable than an ironing board, and have a better chance of not having to stand, between Stevenage and Kings Cross.

 

[physics34]

Southern have had a ample oppotunities to improve these areas and even install separating doors to the units that dont have them during overhauls etc.
I believe some TOCs are missing something when it comes to first class...and the areas would make more money OFF PEAK if they were 'luxury'.....however...saying that, Southern need to use this units around the metro for flexibility reasons, so unless they can one day utilize the fleet in a different way in the future it would be unwise to have units with plush accomodation running around the scumholes of south london late at night.

 

[Journeyman]

I think the whole thing with first class on Southern is that back in the dim and distant past when the Electrostars were ordered, the plan was actually to abolish it, and the provision of it in the end bits of each vehicle was a last-minute afterthought. I think the original plan was to have some sort of premium service in one vehicle on longer distance services with complimentary newspapers, coffee etc, but it never came to fruition. They've never satisfactorily resolved the issue - if you can't provide at least a slightly higher level of comfort, why bother? That said, there's clearly enough people happy to pay for it.

I agree with the comments here, first class is extremely inconsistent in terms of what you get, and on many TOCs it's not worth bothering with. I'd certainly not pay the extra on services where all you'll get is an antimacassar, if you're lucky.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TBH I'd say SN and TL should follow SE in abolishing it. The wider 2+2 sections would be quite good for those doing longer journeys on TL for which the rock-hard narrow seating does not suit.

LNR similarly should drop it except on the Crewes, and those should be operated exclusively[1] using the incoming 350/4s which have a proper 2+1 arrangement, making it reasonable value on a TOC specific ticket. (I'd happily trade VT Standard for LNR 1st at the right price).

[1] For an hourly 8 car service on a 3 hour ish running time you actually need 12 units, so two 350/3s should have 1st changed to 2+1 to make up a full set. If one failed a regular unit could be substituted.

 

[All Line Rover]

I disagree. On LNR there are blinds (very useful on hot, sunny days), plug sockets, large seat-back tables and partition doors, so there is at least some differentiation. The fact that it is not luxurious is reflected in the price LNR tend to charge for first class tickets. The quality of accommodation could do with being improved on the Trent Valley route, but first class doesn't need to be removed from the other services LNR operates on which first class accommodation is available. I created this thread to discuss first class seating which is indistinguishable from standard class seating.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I disagree. On LNR there are blinds (very useful on hot, sunny days), plug sockets, large seat-back tables and partition doors, so there is at least some differentiation.

And markedly inferior seats with less legroom than Standard (in 2+2 sets). I wouldn't sit there if I was paid to do so.

 

[kristiang85]

I remember using a Southern train from Gatwick once; after a long flight I was quite tired, so got on the carriage and sat down in an empty seat. It was only halfway through the journey I realised it was designated 'first class' - there was no partition or seat design difference at all. Luckily I noticed and had got up before any inspector came. But I do wonder how many people fall foul of that.

 

[Deepgreen]

TBH I'd say SN and TL should follow SE in abolishing it. The wider 2+2 sections would be quite good for those doing longer journeys on TL for which the rock-hard narrow seating does not suit.

LNR similarly should drop it except on the Crewes, and those should be operated exclusively[1] using the incoming 350/4s which have a proper 2+1 arrangement, making it reasonable value on a TOC specific ticket. (I'd happily trade VT Standard for LNR 1st at the right price).

[1] For an hourly 8 car service on a 3 hour ish running time you actually need 12 units, so two 350/3s should have 1st changed to 2+1 to make up a full set. If one failed a regular unit could be substituted.

Have SE abolished first class? They have just refurbished most or all of their Electrostar fleet with first class intact!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have SE abolished first class? They have just refurbished most or all of their Electrostar fleet with first class intact!

The new SE franchise requires its complete abolition.

 

[Deepgreen]

Have SE abolished first class? They have just refurbished most or all of their Electrostar fleet with first class intact!

The new SE franchise requires its complete abolition.

Ah - that was money well spent then!