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Digital Railway

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Domh245

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This seems to be in the news today, and there is a press briefing later in York, but it doesn't sound like anything particularly new or exciting is being announced:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/digital-rail-revolution-will-reduce-overcrowding-and-cut-delays

Trains will become faster, more frequent, more punctual and safer through the introduction of new digital technology on the rail network.

Transport Secretary Chris Grayling and Network Rail Chief Executive Mark Carne will today (10 May 2018) launch Network Rail’s Digital Railway Strategy and commit to ensuring all new trains and signalling are digital or digital ready from 2019. They will also set out that they want to see digital rail technology benefiting passengers across the network over the next decade.

New digital rail technology will:

  • safely allow more trains to run per hour by running trains closer together
  • allow more frequent services and more seats
  • cut delays by allowing trains to get moving more rapidly after disruption
  • enable vastly improved mobile and wi-fi connectivity, so that passengers can make the most of their travel time and communities close to the railway can connect more easily
The technology will be fully operational from next year on the Thameslink service in central London, which will see 24 trains pass through every hour. The Digital Railway Strategy is being launched in York, on the Transpennine route, which Chris Grayling will say he wants to be the country’s first digitally controlled intercity railway.

Chris Grayling, Transport Secretary, said:

We are investing in the biggest modernisation of our railway since Victorian times to deliver what passengers want to see – faster, more reliable and more comfortable journeys.

Passenger numbers have doubled in recent years – which means we need to invest in new technology to help deliver the reliable and frequent trains that passengers want.

Investing in a railway fit for the twenty-first century will help the UK become a world leader in rail technology, boosting exports and skills. As we celebrate the Year of Engineering, this is a chance to show young people how digital innovation is opening doors to careers that will shape the future of travel.

Digital rail technology will ensure the best use is made of the almost £48 billion being invested in maintenance, modernisation and renewal on the rail network between 2019 and 2024, which includes new and replacement signalling. The government has also earmarked £450 million specifically for digital railway schemes.

Mark Carne, chief executive, said:

Not since the railway transformed from steam to diesel in the 1960s has a technological breakthrough held such promise to vastly improve our railway for the benefit of the millions of people and businesses who rely on it every day.

The age of a digital railway has today moved from the drawing board and into reality as we reveal a blueprint that will improve the lives of millions of passengers and freight users across the country. Today’s commitment is to adopt and roll-out new digital technology, for both trains and track, that will deliver faster more frequent services for passengers and businesses alike, giving our economy a massive boost.

Digital signalling will mean drivers are provided with real-time information about the network and the location of other trains. They will no longer have to rely on signals by the side of tracks, which will mean fewer train services held up, reducing stop-starting. And in the event of disruption, the digital railway will advise signallers of the best option to get services back to normal and help the network recover more quickly.

The roll-out of digital signalling on the UK network is already underway. The technology is assisting drivers as part of the Thameslink Programme upgrades and the rail industry will fit 200 trains with digital signalling technology by the end of 2018. Crossrail will use in-cab signalling to deliver more trains and seats east-west through London.

The government has also earmarked £5 million for Network Rail to develop proposals for embedding digital technology between Manchester and York, as part of the £3 billion upgrade of that route starting next year.

Roger Ford is unimpressed, and I think I heard Mark Carne say on the radio this morning that they aimed to replace a lot of the "traffic lights" in the next 15-20 years. Thoughts?
 
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jonesy3001

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Does this mean electrification of the line between york and manchester is definatley out of the question now and any other schemes that was happening in the north, eg; platforms 15/16 at piccadilly?
 

eastdyke

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Chris Grayling knows that digital works. He bought his sons some Hornby for Christmas and has two gronks tailchasing at 140mph. The someone puts the boot in ....... and it all stops.
More money anyone? :)
All of the upsides, none of the caveats.
 

Gareth Marston

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We've had the digital railway on the Cambrian for 7 years the number of trans that run is still limited by the physical infrastructure, number of units available and how much £ Govt wants to pay.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Does this mean electrification of the line between york and manchester is definatley out of the question now and any other schemes that was happening in the north, eg; platforms 15/16 at piccadilly?

It actually says 3 billion upgrade of transpennine route which could still include partial electrification is the way I read it
 

squizzler

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There may actually be nothing new in this announcement but it does achieve one thing: to maintain the narrative of progress and growth of the railway industry in the public consciousness. Which in todays media driven world is probably more important than actual substance, and might just provide the momentum necessary for electrification, new routes, etc.

Actually, maybe "digital railway" was never to do with the signalling, but about marketing and controlling the narrative in the digital age of social media and fake news!
 

MarkyT

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In cab signalling is hardly new. It has existed since BR introduced ATP. ;)

Cab signalling, of a very rudimentary kind admittedly, has been in existence since the introduction of AWS, and similar even earlier systems in various parts of the world.
 

MarkyT

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'Removing the traffic lights' from signalling systems does not significantly alter the development and engineering costs for typical schemes, and in many cases the cost of avoiding the lights on sticks is more than exceeded by the greater engineering complexity of radio based ETCS technology, especially in more rural areas where long blocks are perfectly adequate for planned service levels and simple signal posts would be employed with modern low maintenance LED heads. Axle counter train detection is required for either system in a modern scheme, as are points drive and detection requirements. As with Thameslink, the real benefits of much shorter blocks, and spacing not dependent on braking distance at a particular speed, come into their own on certain very busy urban segments, notably around major terminals and on trunk corridors approaching them, where numerous routes converge and very high service levels are desirable. Wide multitrack layouts in these circumstances also often require very costly gantry structures to support conventional signals. In this case the the advantages of full level 2 can be worth the costs and difficulties. Elsewhere a limited supervision (LS) ETCS Level 1 implementation could be an affordable alternative that might be overlaid on existing or new colour light signalling (even semaphores if neccessary) to replace our legacy 'class B' systems, TPWS and AWS in UK. This is the approach already complete in Switzerland and now being adopted in Germany, France, Belgium for the majority of their networks to ensure interoperability without wholesale resignalling. The latest on-board implementations of ETCS on new trains now incorporate the LS mode as a standard feature.
 
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WatcherZero

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The new digital signalling website has a file of their plans dated rv7 Feb 2018, nothing new in that a few short term schemes already under way, longer term schemes like Transpennine and southern part of East Coast. says they have spent £5m on studying digital signalling through Piccadilly with the result expected between Nov 2017 and Jan 2018. Not sure if there will be another new revision of the plan published today.

The speech is here:
https://cdn.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Mark-Carne-Digital-Railway-speech.pdf
 
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The Planner

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We've had the digital railway on the Cambrian for 7 years the number of trans that run is still limited by the physical infrastructure, number of units available and how much £ Govt wants to pay.
It was only ever put there as a test bed anyway and a novel way of getting rid of the RETB, it was never going to be a panacea for all its woes.
 

Gareth Marston

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It was only ever put there as a test bed anyway and a novel way of getting rid of the RETB, it was never going to be a panacea for all its woes.

Just illustrating its limitations as you say it's really just been a straight swap for RETB. The higher speed turnouts we got required new points which is seperste to "digital" anyway. still looking forward to roll out nationally we might squeeze a few more trains between Deansgate and Piccadily bit approaching all those London termini where we then run out of track and have lots of platforms, station throats and conflicting moves already operating at capacity what will the digital railway be able to do?
 

Chris125

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Does this mean electrification of the line between york and manchester is definatley out of the question now and any other schemes that was happening in the north, eg; platforms 15/16 at piccadilly?

It was suggested somewhere that cab signalling can make electrification easier, as they don't have to worry about sightlines for conventional lineside signals when placing masts and gantries.
 

Bald Rick

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Just illustrating its limitations as you say it's really just been a straight swap for RETB. The higher speed turnouts we got required new points which is seperste to "digital" anyway. still looking forward to roll out nationally we might squeeze a few more trains between Deansgate and Piccadily bit approaching all those London termini where we then run out of track and have lots of platforms, station throats and conflicting moves already operating at capacity what will the digital railway be able to do?

With ATO it can make much better use of station throats and thereby raise capacity without expensively changing track layouts.

It removes all speed restrictions related to signalling, of which there are many - particularly at stations with complex layouts. This improves junction and platform reoccupation margins which can further increase capacity.

Also, with some relatively minor layout changes to remove certain conflicts it can increase capacity further without having to build long stretches of new tracks. The SWML is a good example of this.

With signals removed, it significantly reduces signalling maintenance costs, and with short section train detection sections removed (as in Level 2 hybrid and Level 3) further reductions are possible.

Finally, once the fleets are all fitted, and drivers trained, the cost of resignalling reduces, potentially significantly.
 

DarloRich

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We've had the digital railway on the Cambrian for 7 years the number of trans that run is still limited by the physical infrastructure, number of units available and how much £ Govt wants to pay.

it is a test bed for goodness sake. What did you expect? it is a single track railway used by 4 trains a day.
 

Gareth Marston

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With ATO it can make much better use of station throats and thereby raise capacity without expensively changing track layouts.

It removes all speed restrictions related to signalling, of which there are many - particularly at stations with complex layouts. This improves junction and platform reoccupation margins which can further increase capacity.

Also, with some relatively minor layout changes to remove certain conflicts it can increase capacity further without having to build long stretches of new tracks. The SWML is a good example of this.

With signals removed, it significantly reduces signalling maintenance costs, and with short section train detection sections removed (as in Level 2 hybrid and Level 3) further reductions are possible.

Finally, once the fleets are all fitted, and drivers trained, the cost of resignalling reduces, potentially significantly.

But in reality what % uplift are we talking about (obviously this will vary from location to location). Is it really the magic bullet that Grayling and Carne are spinning?

As I said up thread it's all ok saying we can run more trains per hour but if you need more trains and train crew who pays for it? The digital railway doesn't.
 

Gareth Marston

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it is a test bed for goodness sake. What did you expect? it is a single track railway used by 4 trains a day.

But it isn't a test bed for increased capacity - that came about by restoring track capacity ripped out in 80's and 60's which you could have done without etcs

Please look on Real Time Trains there's around 50 trains a day between Machynlleth and Dovey Junction you clearly don't know the Cambrian. Are you getting mixed up with the Heart of Wales?
 

Andyh82

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They were on about this on BBC Breakfast this morning interviewing a bloke from Network Rail. After talking about the digital railway they then moved on to tackle the bloke about the ongoing strike action on the network, and then the state of train toilets.
 

hexagon789

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In cab signalling is hardly new. It has existed since BR introduced ATP. ;)

Well cab signalling was tested on BR on the Southern Region (possibly elsewhere), the APT-P didn't actally have a cab signalling system, technically C-APT was a driver advisory system, it didn't repeat signal indications in the cab.
 

gwr4090

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So what has happened to the grand GWML scheme to replace the obsolete GWR-ATP by ETCS Level 2 overlay? Completion Paddington to Heathrow was due by Sep 17, Didcot Dec 17, Swindon Aug 18 and Bristol Parkway Dec 18. The scheme now appears to have been quietly dropped ? There is no mention in the latest NR strategy documents, just a throwaway comment that some money has been set aside for possible life extension of GWR-ATP.
 

Bald Rick

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But in reality what % uplift are we talking about (obviously this will vary from location to location). Is it really the magic bullet that Grayling and Carne are spinning?

As I said up thread it's all ok saying we can run more trains per hour but if you need more trains and train crew who pays for it? The digital railway doesn't.

In my view, between 10-30%. Certainly ATO on Thameslink is what gets you from 20-24 tph.

And of course you need more resources for more capacity; the capacity point is that digital signalling gives you the ability to implement some of that capacity on existing infrastructure, without having to build new / tracks lines. Of course some new lines will still be needed in some places; but to take the main lines into Waterloo as an example, digital signalling could enable an extra, say, 20% capacity without having to build more tracks for a long way on the approaches or rebuild Waterloo. Surely that’s worth pursuing? Even before the other benefits?
 

Bantamzen

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Does this mean electrification of the line between york and manchester is definatley out of the question now and any other schemes that was happening in the north, eg; platforms 15/16 at piccadilly?

It actually says 3 billion upgrade of transpennine route which could still include partial electrification is the way I read it

I can't help but wonder if this is even the solution that is needed for the North TP routes? Sure a "digital"* route would allow for increases in capacity, but with a largely 2 track route with a mixture of fasts, semi-fast & skip stoppers all this will mean that a late running skip-stopper is going to be caught up a bit quicker & form even longer queues behind them as the stoppers do at the moment when late. At least with electrification you potentially get better acceleration & thus late running services can get away from stations quicker, getting out of the way of faster services behind. Combined with ATO it would be a far better offering than what I suspect the North TP will get, a mixture of ATO in bits, sparks in bits with lots of Grayling Gaps** in-between both.

* I use quotation marks around this phrase as being a long suffering public worker in the IT sector, I have found the word digital in the public sector doesn't always translate into digital solutions, rather just lots of ideas on paper (or Digital on Paper as I like to call it)
** Trademark of Bantamzen Cynical Industries ;)
 

jonesy3001

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I can't help but wonder if this is even the solution that is needed for the North TP routes? Sure a "digital"* route would allow for increases in capacity, but with a largely 2 track route with a mixture of fasts, semi-fast & skip stoppers all this will mean that a late running skip-stopper is going to be caught up a bit quicker & form even longer queues behind them as the stoppers do at the moment when late. At least with electrification you potentially get better acceleration & thus late running services can get away from stations quicker, getting out of the way of faster services behind. Combined with ATO it would be a far better offering than what I suspect the North TP will get, a mixture of ATO in bits, sparks in bits with lots of Grayling Gaps** in-between both.

* I use quotation marks around this phrase as being a long suffering public worker in the IT sector, I have found the word digital in the public sector doesn't always translate into digital solutions, rather just lots of ideas on paper (or Digital on Paper as I like to call it)
** Trademark of Bantamzen Cynical Industries ;)


i dont think transport for the north will do anything, they're going round the north of england spouting out projects they say are going to be done and i dont think anything will happen, they`ll just spin out lies saying they've run out of money pocket it and run.
 

whhistle

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In cab signalling is hardly new. It has existed since BR introduced ATP. ;)
Yes, but how many trains since then have had it AND in use?
Not many. The 395s?

This announcement is about putting all this stuff into practice in normal operation.

Do the recent classes 80x / 700 / 707 / 710 / 720 / 385 / 387 / 345 have in cab signalling capability?
 

TheDavibob

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Do the recent classes 80x / 700 / 707 / 710 / 720 / 385 / 387 / 345 have in cab signalling capability?
They're certainly all designed to be fitted with ETCS when appropriate (and, of course, the 345 is to use it on the GWR) without major difficulties [not sure about 385, but I'd be very surprised if not]. This has the advantage that the entire passenger fleet on the ECML south of Peterborough and Foxton, save for the odd remnant of the 365 fleet floating around, will be essentially trivial to upgrade (as of the end of next year?), which is I think the primary reason why it's at the front of the pipeline.
 

Gareth Marston

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In my view, between 10-30%. Certainly ATO on Thameslink is what gets you from 20-24 tph.

And of course you need more resources for more capacity; the capacity point is that digital signalling gives you the ability to implement some of that capacity on existing infrastructure, without having to build new / tracks lines. Of course some new lines will still be needed in some places; but to take the main lines into Waterloo as an example, digital signalling could enable an extra, say, 20% capacity without having to build more tracks for a long way on the approaches or rebuild Waterloo. Surely that’s worth pursuing? Even before the other benefits?

However I thought we just recently declared the "end in sight" of the traditional season ticket commuter in the South East- why would you want to invest in uplifting capacity for a declining market?

Grayling is on record recently as saying that the pretend peaks , exorbitant Anytime fares and therefore yield management are OK so why to do you need to spend £ uplifting capacity on InterCity routes when you can just screw £ out the customers?

There's some inherent contradictions between the flag waving and whats actually going on.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Yes, but how many trains since then have had it AND in use?
Not many. The 395s?
This announcement is about putting all this stuff into practice in normal operation.
Do the recent classes 80x / 700 / 707 / 710 / 720 / 385 / 387 / 345 have in cab signalling capability?
373/374/395 have in cab signalling for HS1, but it's the French TVM430 standard as used on their early LGVs, not ERTMS/ETCS.
700/345 will have ETCS for some key sections of their routes (ATO on Thameslink).
Anything on ECML south of Peterborough will get ETCS (or be replaced). NR has a programme with the TOCs to fit freight locos for that route.
But currently 387s don't have the capability, and neither do Scotrail's 385s (no plans for ETCS in Scotland yet).
No plans on Waterloo routes either, so no plans to fit ETCS on their trains, eg 707.
HS2 will have ETCS from the start, but there are no plans to fit the WCML north of where HS2 joins.
Fitting ETCS is not yet a "simple" operation, especially on older stock. It was a nightmare on ATW's Cambrian 158s.
But all new trains are supposed to be "ETCS Ready", whatever that means.
 
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