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Direct Paris-Berlin TGV/ICE confirmed

zwk500

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We can't get HS2 built in full and yet Europeans are connecting each others' cities for c£57 per ticket. :'(
It's not like there aren't gaps in the European HSR network either... The French failure to finish off LGV Rhin-Rhone is perhaps the most egregious, but there'e plenty of other elements you'd question (No HS link east of Amsterdam, the Brussels-Antwerp gap, etc.)
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quantinghome

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That assumes that there is sufficient demand to warrant a convenient HSL! Direct connections from Berlin to the French border were in great demand in the 1870s and again around 1914 and 1939 but not so much since. The High Speed Routes in Western Germany were of course designed for a different era (pre 1990). Frankfurt - Berlin is not (yet) particularly well- served without long detours.
I guess those... err... historical demand spikes... were focussed more on capacity than speed?

But yes, the main justification for high speed lines would come from domestic demand rather than cross-border traffic. But it's been 33 years since reunification. The Berlin - Hannover new line started construction in 1992. Given the amount of money invested in the East since then, it's genuinely surprising that we haven't seen a complete high speed route for Frankfurt - Berlin. They're only the Commercial and Political capitals of the country after all...

The dog that isn't barking in all this is the EU. It doesn't really seem that interested in a fully-linked up European high speed network and seems happy for members to built what they want, when they feel like it, or not at all.
 

rvdborgt

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The dog that isn't barking in all this is the EU. It doesn't really seem that interested in a fully-linked up European high speed network and seems happy for members to built what they want, when they feel like it, or not at all.
That's because the EU can only do what its member states agree on, and their transport ministers are often heavily lobbied by their own railways, who would like to be given lots of money to invest in lots of concrete for their domestic networks.
 

The exile

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I guess those... err... historical demand spikes... were focussed more on capacity than speed?
Both! The demand in 1870 led to the construction of the Kanonenbahn which linked Berlin to the Rhine via as few bottlenecks as possible. By the time it was complete the border had moved - the construction of another border post WW2 spelt the end for most of its central section - though its western end is still crucial. Interestingly, the desire to avoid delays to military logistics was also one of the prime movers behind the Berlin Stadtbahn.
 

williamn

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(why not get onto a plane for the same price and arrive 2h earlier at probably more convenient times)

Because lots of people prefer travelling by train if the option is there? Im sure enough to fill one train per day.
 

AlastairFraser

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Politics, I expect that service to have relatively low ridership (why not get onto a plane for the same price and arrive 2h earlier at probably more convenient times)
It also builds ridership to justify more investment in infrastructure though. It's only 1h44 on LGV Est to Strasbourg, then the lines just across the German border towards Frankfurt are being upgraded towards a max speed of 155mph up to Frankfurt, then the 186mph Gelnhausen to Fulda HSL is being planned and there's an approx. 60 mile gap on the classic network between Fulda and near Eisenach, where upgrading isn't planned as far as I can see, before you reach the upgraded and new HSL route all the way to Berlin.

If you managed to close that gap and ended up with an overall time of 4hr30-5hr after a decade of upgrades and new lines, then that is an attractive proposition. It's going to be at least 3hr15mins from central Paris to central Berlin once you've accounted for the RER to CDG or metro to Orly (according to Google around 30 mins Chatelet Les Halles to CDG and 27 Chatelet to Orly), security and check in time (40 mins for Air France/Transavia or at the gate 30 mins before for easyJet), the flight and then the transport in from Brandenburg airport to central Berlin (min 25-30 mins, according to Google).
 

Bald Rick

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To put it in context, the Paris - Berlin market is roughly the same size and distance as London - Prague or London - Munich.
 

A S Leib

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To put it in context, the Paris - Berlin market is roughly the same size and distance as London - Prague or London - Munich.
I'm guessing you mean that the cities / urban areas are equivalent sizes, although I suspect Berlin has a lower proportion of (business in particular?) international travel demand for Germany as a whole than London, Paris or Prague do for the UK, France or Czechia.

I think European Sleeper have said that the UK's one of their largest markets, so that is positive news for one daytime train per day between Paris and Berlin.
 

Bald Rick

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I'm guessing you mean that the cities / urban areas are equivalent sizes, although I suspect Berlin has a lower proportion of (business in particular?) international travel demand for Germany as a whole than London, Paris or Prague do for the UK, France or Czechia.

No I meant that the distance involved, and the demand for travel between them was in the same ‘ball park’ (Measured by the number of daily flights between them which is a crude metric but about the best I could find).
 

riceuten

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From a press release, presuambly

"Confirmed today at Innotrans: As of December 2024 there will be a direct ICE service between Paris and Berlin (via Frankfurt (Main) Süd and Strasbourg).
It'll be operated by Deutsche Bahn and their ICE 3. Travel time is expected to be around 8 hours. Tickets to be available from October starting at 59.99 €.

Berlin Hbf (11:54) -> Paris Est (19:55)
Paris Est (9:55) -> Berlin Hbf (18:03)
"
 
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In the current timetable you can leave Paris Nord at 0955 and arrive in Berlin Hbf at 1816, with one comfortable change in Köln Hbf (1315 /1346).

I would have thought a direct service via Brussels would have been more commercially advantageous - presumably it is all too complicated to involve SNCB as well!
 

30907

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In the current timetable you can leave Paris Nord at 0955 and arrive in Berlin Hbf at 1816, with one comfortable change in Köln Hbf (1315 /1346).

I would have thought a direct service via Brussels would have been more commercially advantageous - presumably it is all too complicated to involve SNCB as well!
Competing with Red Eurostar on its prime route not to mention crewing costs for 1tpd. Whereas this is an extension of the existing cooperation - and provides a Berlin-Strasbourg link among others.
 

rvdborgt

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In the current timetable you can leave Paris Nord at 0955 and arrive in Berlin Hbf at 1816, with one comfortable change in Köln Hbf (1315 /1346).

I would have thought a direct service via Brussels would have been more commercially advantageous - presumably it is all too complicated to involve SNCB as well!
If you can find a good path. The current plan via Strasbourg can theoretically also be done faster, e.g. by not going via Darmstadt, but I suppose paths are scarce around Frankfurt. Adding a fast train around Brussels and Cologne won't be easy either.
 

BahrainLad

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When one considers

- Paris - Berlin flights are either Air France or Easyjet who cover off / monopolise their respective ends of the market so if I want to travel one-way PAR-BER a week from today it's £64-£179 with U2, and £226-£425 with AF and that's for basic economy
- CDG is a drag to get to and an extremely suboptimal experience from a passenger POV once you're there
- BER into town isn't much better than CDG into Paris

8 hours on an ICE begins to seem quite appealing.
 

williamn

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When one considers

- Paris - Berlin flights are either Air France or Easyjet who cover off / monopolise their respective ends of the market so if I want to travel one-way PAR-BER a week from today it's £64-£179 with U2, and £226-£425 with AF and that's for basic economy
- CDG is a drag to get to and an extremely suboptimal experience from a passenger POV once you're there
- BER into town isn't much better than CDG into Paris

8 hours on an ICE begins to seem quite appealing.
Plus you can do useful stuff during that time, whether its work or reading or whatever you define as useful. Air travel is a succession of queues and walks with the actual time in the air having very little time or space to do anything.
 

doc7austin

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The big downer of this new train:
It does not connect to/from London on the Eurostar.
The connection times are too short for comfort.
 

43096

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The big downer of this new train:
It does not connect to/from London on the Eurostar.
The connection times are too short for comfort.
That feels like it is a long way round to get from London to Berlin? Better bet would be Eurostar to Amsterdam for the NS/DB IC service to Berlin.
 

popeter45

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The big downer of this new train:
It does not connect to/from London on the Eurostar.
The connection times are too short for comfort.
i suspect if they get alot of people missing the connection (and trying to use HONAT as a result) they may shift the timing to help
 

doc7austin

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35 minutes connection time Eurostar (Paris Nord) -> ICE (Paris Est);
76 minutes connection time ICE (Paris Est) -> Eurostar (Paris Nord);

This is too short for me.

That feels like it is a long way round to get from London to Berlin? Better bet would be Eurostar to Amsterdam for the NS/DB IC service to Berlin.
From December the only one-stop daytime option between Berlin and London exists via Amsterdam, indeed.
 

Austriantrain

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i suspect if they get alot of people missing the connection (and trying to use HONAT as a result) they may shift the timing to help

Not so easy, it’s not as if this train was running were no train has ever run before…
 

popeter45

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Not so easy, it’s not as if this train was running were no train has ever run before…
it kind of is, seems to take one of the Paris-Frankfurt trains and extends it to Berlin using existing slots on that route (looks to be ICE 796 from a quick look at DB)
not that hard to instead extend on of the later Paris-Frankfurt trains and take a diffrent Frankfurt-Berlin slot (such as ICE 1034)
 

valedave

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That feels like it is a long way round to get from London to Berlin? Better bet would be Eurostar to Amsterdam for the NS/DB IC service to Berlin.
The secret way is to jump on the 12:25 ICE 315 from Brussels and change to the twice-daily direct Aachen-Berlin ICE with a comfortable 53-minute connection in Aachen.

You can often get really decent prices on that service too. I can still get a ticket for tomorrow, for example, for €66.
 

Starmill

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don’t think it’s a big downer for people in Europe
The idea that any trains on the continent are intended to assist with travel to and from Great Britain is a little bizarre. Where is that the case anywhere? There are a handful of services through the tunnel per day, and that's it.

From December the only one-stop daytime option between Berlin and London exists via Amsterdam, indeed.
That's just random chance though, not a recommendation for a connection. The journey time for this is so long as to be almost intolerable anyway, given queuing and checking in.
 

riceuten

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The big downer of this new train:
It does not connect to/from London on the Eurostar.
The connection times are too short for comfort.
I think they would expect you to do this via Amsterdam.

Years ago, they were talking about a pedestrian tunnel direct from Gare du Nord to Gare de L’Est - wonder what became of that? I caught a delayed Eurostar and arrived in GDN at 1817 and was able to catch a train at GDL’E at 1833. Though in reverse that would be more challenging as it’s uphill.
 
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Starmill

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I think they would expect you to do this via Amsterdam.

Years ago, they were talking about a pedestrian tunnel direct from Gare du Nord to Gare de L’Est - wonder what became of that? I caught a delayed Eurostar and arrived in GDN at 1817 and was able to catch a train at GDL’E at 1833. Though in reverse that would be more challenging as it’s uphill.
Really though? It's a journey nearly eleven hours long without any through ticket availability, no matter which way you go. Plus around an hour allowance for check in, border control and security. Realistically this is just not something with appeal beyond us as enthusiasts.

My understanding is that the pedestrian access improvement to Gare l'Est is coming as part of the Charles de Gaulle Aéroport fast service but I don't know if it will be underground the whole way.
 

quantinghome

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The big downer of this new train:
It does not connect to/from London on the Eurostar.
The connection times are too short for comfort.
Why on earth would you want to connect to this train from London? You can leave London an hour later, change at Brussels and Cologne, and get into Berlin an hour earlier.
 

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