Disabled child refused travel with FGW

[Rich McLean]

It was "a battery-powered wheelchair" which can be very heavy, the staff may not have realised this at first and were going to get the ramp out. Perhaps having been firmly told it was only for ordinary w/chairs they then had to refuse help, imagine the fuss if the ramp had broken under the weight.

As a carer I can say nearly all buses are now accessible, simplest ramp rolls-up for storage - driver has to lift it in place and maybe help push the chair. Some are part of the floor, driver has to lift and swing them out (mind fingers), best are powered ones that check they're properly touching the ground before allowing doors to open - may mean driver has to shuffle the bus about to find a suitable place. Of course there's still only one space which may be full of baby buggies, driver can't order them to be folded, so no certainty of being able to travel when wanted.

Plymouth CityBus (Go-Ahead) require the buggies to be folded when a wheel chair wants to board, and there are signs saying this on the bus, and is also stated in the CoC. Iv'e seen it happen, and the moans from the mums are comical to say the least

 

[455driver]

I take it all the people moaning about the staff needing "training" to use the ramp dont work for an organisation obsessed with being sued?

The training takes all of 5 minutes and the box to say you have been "trained" is ticked, you are now covered by the company insurance to use the equipment. Yes it is easy and it does seem a bit overboard but if you use equipment you have not been "trained" to use and something goes wrong then you are on your own sunshine, the company will hang you out and the union wont be able to help you either, okay its only a ramp but when I was a bus driver I have seen people deliberately tip the chair as they were getting off try and sue me because I didnt help them, it isnt my job to help them, it was my job to deploy the ramp and then their own helper pushed them on and off, the case didnt go very far because I stuck to the rules (even though I didnt like the "dont help" rule), if I had done the decent thing I would have been out of a job and in court.

Anyone that thinks its "only a ramp FFS" needs to remember "where there is blame there is a claim" and boy do they like to claim.

 

[Flamingo]

Lots of assumptions (as usual) on this thread. Somebody nay have dropped a bolic, or not. We only have one side of the story, and an apology from FGW along with the offer of a day out for the kid to make up for it. if there are any retraining issues, they have been covered by now.
What else do the outraged brigade want? Ths station to be shut down and the franchise taken off First, and the company be put into voluntary liquidation?

 

[anthony263]

Plymouth CityBus (Go-Ahead) require the buggies to be folded when a wheel chair wants to board, and there are signs saying this on the bus, and is also stated in the CoC. Iv'e seen it happen, and the moans from the mums are comical to say the least

Yes I have had to do it and have seen it happen. To me the wheelchair space is to be used by wheelchairs not buggies.

 

[richw]

Plymouth CityBus (Go-Ahead) require the buggies to be folded when a wheel chair wants to board, and there are signs saying this on the bus, and is also stated in the CoC. Iv'e seen it happen, and the moans from the mums are comical to say the least

Our Pushchair takes up greater space when folded, admittedly flattened, but over a greater surface area. Would be rather interesting to try and fold it up on a bus, and then try and store it somewhere.
This is the main reason we tend to avoid bus travel!

 

[jon0844]

Yup, that's what I see a 'wheelchair' area as being for too. Clue is in the name (or the symbol) but I'll never forget a woman with a buggy asking an old couple to move from the tip down seats of a 313 to let her use the 'buggy area' shown by that icon of a wheelchair...

They moved too, thus validating her misguided belief.

 

[SS4]

Plymouth CityBus (Go-Ahead) require the buggies to be folded when a wheel chair wants to board, and there are signs saying this on the bus, and is also stated in the CoC. Iv'e seen it happen, and the moans from the mums are comical to say the least

NXWM have a policy of only two unfolded buggies at a time (generally there is enough space for two buggies and a wheelchair) but I've only seen this enforced once. I don't mind if drivers want to look the other way but I hate having to do the aisle slalom to get off the bus

Lots of assumptions (as usual) on this thread. Somebody nay have dropped a bolic, or not. We only have one side of the story, and an apology from FGW along with the offer of a day out for the kid to make up for it. if there are any retraining issues, they have been covered by now.
What else do the outraged brigade want? Ths station to be shut down and the franchise taken off First, and the company be put into voluntary liquidation?

Of course. This one side has been exacerbated by the disabled person being a child which has no relevancy to the story.

 

[RPI]

I feel that there must be more to this, flamingo will probably agree with me that there is certainly no policy to not carry wheelchairs that haven't booked, in fact i'd say only about 1 in 10 of the wheelchairs that we carry are actually booked, you just get the ramp out and put them on!

 

[185]

Whilst it seems a bit harsh, I believe that posters and notices etc do recomend giving 24 hours notice if assistance will be required.

Especialy at smaller stations, one cant allways expect everyone to give their undivided attention to a disabled passenger.

24 hours is desired, however those of us who've worked on the railways for a long time know that ringing in advance isn't always possible. Despite this, most of us try to help passengers as best we can.

If this kind of thing is happening, it's a training issue, which FGW and several other tight-fisted companies are guilty of neglecting over the years.

 

[Clip]

I'm concerned as to whether this could happen on the West Coast as well.

Why on earth would you say something like that? It could happen on any TOC.

Absolutely shocked that the staff didn't bring the ramps over. How hard really is it, seriously? I'm not sure what to expect out of this at the moment.

Getting ramps out and in place is easy. However,as we dont know what sort of wheelchair it was then its difficult to say. Have you ever tried pushing a very large wheelchair and its passenger up a short sharp steep ramp before? It can be quite difficult.

What on earth do you want out of this moment? Its got nowt to do with you and it seems that FGW have offered the lad a wee cab visit to apologise for their staff members errors.

Just a shame negative stories like this get raised in the press and not the good stories.. But that wouldnt get people up in arms would it.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Lots of assumptions (as usual) on this thread. Somebody nay have dropped a bolic, or not. We only have one side of the story, and an apology from FGW along with the offer of a day out for the kid to make up for it.

That's probably the best summary of this story that we are likely to get (with no first-hand or documentary information ever likely to appear on here).

I saw a comparable situation at Paddington involving a passenger with booked ramp assistance for their wheelchair being lost in the paperwork and being stuck on board for a few minutes. It's unfortunate, it's a mistake, mistakes happen, and they are readily solved, and people apologise; even offer a compensatory gesture.
It isn't a big deal.
Do you want to know another scandal? . . . .
I once added 2 numbers together and got the wrong answer!

 

[WelshBluebird]

I saw a comparable situation at Paddington involving a passenger with booked ramp assistance for their wheelchair being lost in the paperwork and being stuck on board for a few minutes. It's unfortunate, it's a mistake, mistakes happen, and they are readily solved, and people apologise; even offer a compensatory gesture.
It isn't a big deal.
Do you want to know another scandal? . . . .
I once added 2 numbers together and got the wrong answer!

To be honest here, I really don't think that is comparable at all.
Being stuck onboard for a few minutes at a terminal station is no where near in the same league as not being able to travel at all.

 

[John55]

Isn't that what you are doing? Not everyone, even those with a disability, can plan their days 24 hours ahead. If I had been sold a ticket then told I can't travel I don't think I would be too pleased either.

I was commenting on the press story and the second post both of which were I suspect written in haste without any apparent research into the events which took place.

I sometime get rather frustrated not so much with disabled access regulations but more with the way they are implemented. Every time I use a ticket machine which is unreadable by anyone more than 5' 6" tall so have to crouch down to use it or go past the site of the station which might have been built but hasn't because it now costs too much I wonder who is now being discriminated against.

 

[Flamingo]

I feel that there must be more to this, flamingo will probably agree with me that there is certainly no policy to not carry wheelchairs that haven't booked, in fact i'd say only about 1 in 10 of the wheelchairs that we carry are actually booked, you just get the ramp out and put them on!

Exactly. But whatever it is, we probably won't find out.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To be honest here, I really don't think that is comparable at all.
Being stuck onboard for a few minutes at a terminal station is no where near in the same league as not being able to travel at all.

Not according to the woman screaming abuse at me in Pad a few weeks ago, as the ramp wasn't waiting on her. It was coming down the platform, but that wasn't good enough, as I was told in a very profane manner.

 

[455driver]

The press release does state that the child uses an electric chair when outside, I wonder how big it is and if this had any bearing on the situation?

The ramps are designed for wheel chairs NOT mobility scooters!

 

[bAzTNM]

Absolutely disgraceful. Hope he takes them for what he can get. You can be sure that the train would have been filled with tanned, athletic, young women cyclists though. Horrible.

 

[Flamingo]

Absolutely disgraceful. Hope he takes them for what he can get. You can be sure that the train would have been filled with tanned, athletic, young women cyclists though. Horrible.

You are "Disgusted" of Tunbridge Wells and I claim my £10 :roll:

 

[Yew]

The press release does state that the child uses an electric chair when outside, I wonder how big it is and if this had any bearing on the situation?

The ramps are designed for wheel chairs NOT mobility scooters!

There is a massive diferance betweenan electric wheelchair and a mobility scooter though, some can be as small as a standard wheelchair, but a bit heavier (I think my uncle had a device that could turn a standard chair into a basic electric one for a while). Although his new big chair is bigger than most mobility scooters, electric, with pneumatic rams so he can stand up in it. I dont think he would get that on a train, despite technically being a wheelchair, However a more modest machine would be acceptable

 

[Wolfie]

From This is Wiltshire



The offer of free journey and a cab tour from FGW is welcome, but the situation should never have arisen in the first place.

Booked assistance is not an obligation on the disabled. A staffed station and the fact Pewsey is served exclusively by trains with a guard/TM should have been enough to ensure this young chap was able to board.

Time for an "interview without coffee" as the military would say. Those staff members left their employer in a position where it could have faced prosecution under the Equality Act - NOT clever!

 

[GB]

You know the full facts of the story then do you? ...and by full facts I mean not just that of whats printed in the paper.

 

[Wolfie]

As a carer I can say nearly all buses are now accessible, simplest ramp rolls-up for storage - driver has to lift it in place and maybe help push the chair. Some are part of the floor, driver has to lift and swing them out (mind fingers), best are powered ones that check they're properly touching the ground before allowing doors to open - may mean driver has to shuffle the bus about to find a suitable place. Of course there's still only one space which may be full of baby buggies, driver can't order them to be folded, so no certainty of being able to travel when wanted.

my bold

Oh yes he can - the bus is designed and licensed to carry wheelchair passengers not buggies - and, at least in London, the signage makes it very clear that the spaces is for wheelchairs and buggies can be there if and only if the space is not required for a wheelchair....mind you, wtach the chavs bleat when asked to fold their monstrocities.....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You know the full facts of the story then do you? ...and by full facts I mean not just that of whats printed in the paper.

The key word in my posting was "could".....

 

[YorkshireBear]

I'm concerned as to whether this could happen on the West Coast as well.

Absolutely shocked that the staff didn't bring the ramps over. How hard really is it, seriously? I'm not sure what to expect out of this at the moment.

Yep, one isoltate incicent at a station in Wiltshire represents the entire First Company and all its staff. Virgin staff will obviously take on these characteristics as soon as it becomes First West Coast.
Did you know, not one wheelchair user is ever seen on FTPE FCC Scotrail or FGW so obviously, this type fo incident will be regular on the west coast for years to come. Virgin staff have never once made a mistake.

On a serious note, this is a pretty bad incident publicity wise. I do not want to base opinion on one local newspapers report though. It is an isolated incident and it must be stressed that hundreds of wheelchair users use trains every day without any problems.

 

[bnm]

You know the full facts of the story then do you? ...and by full facts I mean not just that of whats printed in the paper.

And do you know otherwise?

 

[GB]

And do you know otherwise?

Did I say I do?

 

[tempests1]

The twenty four hour rule is to try & make travel as easy and seamless as possible for the person requiring assisted travel. Just over ten years ago I was a guard One day we rolled up to Camberley and a passenger in a wheelchair wished to travel to Ascot. The wheelchair ramp was chained and padlocked I didn’t have the necessary key. The ticket office was closed so I had to run up to the drivers cab and ask if had the correct key fortunately he did I then had to run back to the passenger unlock the ramp, they got on, then I had to lock up the ramp again and we were on our way the train had lost six or seven minutes as a result the passengers on board who wished to connect onto the London train at Ascot missed the train and had a thirty minute wait. I agree it would be good if the passengers that require assistance could just turn up and travel but there can be problems if they don’t. Imagine if the person had booked potentially an RO2 would have been waiting on the platform poised with ramp potentially a two minute operation and the London passengers would have made their train. As previously stated whatever the full story is First have been good at turning negative news in positive as how many young lads would say no to cabbing a HST!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh yes he can - the bus is designed and licensed to carry wheelchair passengers not buggies - and, at least in London, the signage makes it very clear that the spaces is for wheelchairs and buggies can be there if and only if the space is not required for a wheelchair....mind you, wtach the chavs bleat when asked to fold their monstrocities.....

Sadly you meet a minority of people who are selfish but not all parents/guardians of children are like this. I personally avoid bus travel like the plague as my youngest is still in a pushchair. In some cases people with young children have to suffer the abuses of the supermarket parent and child parking spaces being used by people who's children are 15 years old or those who have no children. Another situation that crops up is people with disabled blue badges parking in these spaces. Imagine if a person with young children parked in the disabled space the outcry would be very loud!

 

[Ferret]

And do you know otherwise?

With all due respect, GB is not the one shouting his mouth off saying it's disgraceful yadda yadda yadda. The problem with newspaper stories like this is that you never hear both sides - remember that Aryantony or whatever he was called?

On the face of it you thought that the staff were out of order, especially if you just read the newspapers. Then, with a bit more digging, we find exactly who was in the wrong - Aryantony! Now, this is not to say that the customers here were in the wrong - but I would caution against hanging the staff here before all the facts are known.

 

[bnm]

Did I say I do?

Well no, else I wouldn't have asked.

My point is that it is all to common here on Rail UK to try and debunk something merely because the subject has been covered in the press. Those that are doing the debunking have no knowledge that the facts are not as reported.

This is a local paper that is highly unlikely to be peopled with journalists who have an anti-rail agenda. They are just reporting an incidence of disability discrimination. Most likely unintentional discrimination but discrimination nonetheless. These things should be reported.

 

[Ferret]

My point is that it is all to common here on Rail UK to try and debunk something merely because the subject has been covered in the press. Those that are doing the debunking have no knowledge that the facts are not as reported.

There's a good reason for this. Now, I don't know whether you've considered this before, but just because something is written down somewhere does not make it true!

'The Pope is a Sikh'. See - I wrote something down in black and white on an internet forum - would you take that as gospel? I think not!

Further to this simple concept - past experience, as I demonstrated above, tells me that there are two sides to every story. Yes, we may not have the full facts either, but I refer you back to Aryantony - who was proved to have been in the wrong there in the end? You're attacking people for debunking who have insight into what happens, experience of the railway. Intelligent people, who have the brains to realise that some things aren't always as they seem. I've got to say that taking the attitude that it must be right because a journalist said so demonstrates an awful lack of intelligence and common sense.

This is a local paper that is highly unlikely to be peopled with journalists who have an anti-rail agenda. They are just reporting an incidence of disability discrimination. Most likely unintentional discrimination but discrimination nonetheless. These things should be reported.

Not necessarily anti-rail, but pro-selling their paper!

 

[2Dogbox]

What's stopping a fellow guard getting the ramp? We do it up here all the time without all this 24hour garbage

It's the same here, if someone turns up in a wheelchair I get the ramp out and they get on. And then get the ramp out when they want to get off!

 

[455driver]

Pewsey is on a DOO route so no guard.

So expect more of this when McNumpty has done away with all guards and most platform staff!

Whats that you say, it will be the drivers doing it?
Okay but what about timekeeping then, it will probably take 4 or 5 minutes to load a wheelchair and get the cab live again (there ia no way I will be leaving the cab with the controls live) plus the same again when the pax gets off again, so you wont mind your train regularly being 10 minutes late will you?

Does anyone know for certain what sort of motorised wheelchair the lad was in because that will answer all the questions, or just carry on argueing amonst yourselves!