Disabled Passenger Over-Carried

[deltic]

I'd hardly call them "slightly different"! One involves sat in an office taking money and issuing tickets whilst the other involves driving a vehicle around platforms full of people wandering around aimlessly whilst trying to assist people with mobility problems. Slightly different.......err ok!

I know for a fact in my work if I was aksed to do someone else's job as well as my own, I'd want extra pay. I wouldn't do two jobs for the pay of one.

You are not doing two jobs - you are working flexibly and being able to undertake a range of activities within a working day. Its what employers are increasingly looking for and staff often welcome as it provides greater job variety.

 

[Bletchleyite]

"Sorry I cannot help you board this train and you will be left behind. I don't get paid for it."

I am unlikely to forget witnessing two members of Thameslink staff, one dispatcher and one driver, have a loud, sweary stand-up argument on the platform at London Bridge about who should assist a wheelchair user to leave the train, as delay minutes were racking up and said wheelchair user looking on from the train feeling decidedly unvalued as a customer.

Even if it wasn't either of their jobs, they have witnessed a customer service problem, and so as representatives of the company it's on them to see how it can be resolved, not to argue about it.

That attitude is unacceptable*, and it still exists.

* If it'd been my private business I'd have sacked both of them on the spot (to me arguing and swearing in the presence of customers is clear gross misconduct), though no doubt on the railway even if it was reported they'd have got away with a meeting with tea and no biscuits and continuing as normal the next day with their attitude unchanged.

And it would take how long to deal with that during a 1 minute booked station stop?

Really an IT system could tell them what to do based on that knowledge.

 

[Kite159]

No surprise the wheelchair couldn't fit down the aisles to reach a door which was on the platform as the aisles on those new GA trains are very narrow due to the super high density 3+2 seating

 

[Bletchleyite]

No surprise the wheelchair couldn't fit down the aisles to reach a door which was on the platform as the aisles on those new GA trains are very narrow due to the super high density 3+2 seating

A wheelchair can't fit down the aisle of any UK train regardless of the seating layout, other than possibly one of the "standee trains" like 700s, but in that case by coincidence rather than design.

 

[LowLevel]

And it would take how long to deal with that during a 1 minute booked station stop?

Unless the person appears on the platform at the last second, you should surely have some warning or prep time before conducting your work. Even if they do, you check if you aren't sure, because the 30 seconds checking is well worth it versus for example having a passcom pulled and potentially repositioning the train. The current trend is for customer service staff to have access to decent smart phones or tablets and thus such an app/document should be easy enough to provide and use.

I did passenger assists at the same time as dispatching and I don't recall it being a problem and we had some bizarre platform arrangements, EG front 4 for station X, unless it's a Sunday and the train is going via a particular diversion, in which case it's the rear 4, which might be a different unit entirely, and only for the first 2 hours of the morning. We were just expected to be able to work it out and get on with it and more importantly know which stations could trip you up.

Too many staff on the railway have a fixation with seconds and forget the big picture which can cause minutes to be an issue. It is worth taking the time to check these things.

 

[Domh245]

I'd hardly call them "slightly different"! One involves sat in an office taking money and issuing tickets whilst the other involves driving a vehicle around platforms full of people wandering around aimlessly whilst trying to assist people with mobility problems. Slightly different.......err ok!

To be fair, if we're specifically dealing with buggy driving, there'll be a whole host of other staff members you could call on before reverting to ticket office staff, given that you only tend to get buggies at the largest stations. Hell, I'm fairly certain there's a buggy at Euston (and other stations) that is used to drag Wheely bins around, you could pull the driver off that as a first port of call!

 

[AlterEgo]

And if the ticket office staff are out driving around the station in a golf buggy who then sells the tickets? And would you expect them to do both their own job selling tickets AND drive the buggy around for just a ticket office staff wage or would you pay them more?

Which do you think is the more important task out of those two?

 

[6Gman]

I'd hardly call them "slightly different"! One involves sat in an office taking money and issuing tickets whilst the other involves driving a vehicle around platforms full of people wandering around aimlessly whilst trying to assist people with mobility problems. Slightly different.......err ok!

Since we are discussing disability issues can I point out that there will be people capable of selling tickets who would be unable to drive vehicles and vice versa because of health and disability issues. Requiring staff to be capable of a wide range of different roles will close off opportunities for people with disabilities.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Since we are discussing disability issues can I point out that there will be people capable of selling tickets who would be unable to drive vehicles and vice versa because of health and disability issues. Requiring staff to be capable of a wide range of different roles will close off opportunities for people with disabilities.

I'm sure there will, but that won't apply to most people, so provided you make reasonable adjustments for those who can't then there's not a problem.

 

[bluenoxid]

Would a person driving a buggy on a platform be expected to be safety critical and pass certain occupational health requirements as if they were dispatching trains. I’m assuming not but thought I would confirm.

 

[GALLANTON]

I'm sure there will, but that won't apply to most people, so provided you make reasonable adjustments for those who can't then there's not a problem.

There would be a problem if you asked ticket office staff to drive the buggy, untrained and they hit someone! It's not as simple as you make things out to be.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There would be a problem if you asked ticket office staff to drive the buggy, untrained and they hit someone! It's not as simple as you make things out to be.

Where did I say they would be asked to do it untrained?

 

[GALLANTON]

Where did I say they would be asked to do it untrained?

You basically said get ticket staff to do it. I doubt that any of the ticket staff at stations are also trained to drive the buggy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You basically said get ticket staff to do it. I doubt that any of the ticket staff at stations are also trained to drive the buggy.

I said that the ticket office staff (or other station staff) should be trained in doing it so they can stand in if necessary, so that there aren't only one or two people planned to be there capable of it who then go sick and results in reasonable adjustments for disabled people not being made.

If you have too few people trained to reasonably ensure the service is provided in the context of expected sickness (and COVID has been around long enough for that to be expected), then you're not making adequate "reasonable adjustments".

 

[TheAlbanach_]

I'm afraid I will have to disagree. The system is poor and not fit for purpose. So much so that were I in need of assistance I would not use rail at all, other than those TOCs providing level boarding.

It will never work adequately until:-
1. A specific, named individual takes personal responsibility for the assisted person at every step of the journey.
2. Hand-off must be in person, with the previous named individual and new named individual both present in sight and earshot of the assistance user to "sign out" and introduce themselves respectively.
3. The current named individual must not "abandon" the assisted person, e.g. leave the train to go and drive the next one, until such time as a handover as per (2) has been conducted. Nor may a driver depart from the station where the assisted passenger is to disembark until (2) has been conducted.
4. No situation must be allowed to arise where the assisted person is not in the care of a specific, named individual, between the point of presenting themselves for assistance and the point of leaving the train at the destination and the named individual having confirmed that all lifts etc to exit the station are in working order.

(3) must apply in all circumstances, even (arguably especially) an emergency evacuation.

Yes, it's onerous, but otherwise we fail vulnerable people.

Best get the level boarding sorted, hadn't they?

Passenger Assistance is not a babysitting service. To have a proper system the assistance should almost be invisible. It should be no effort for the person needing the help. And the staff certainly should not be “handing off” someone, they’re human not some object.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I think it is unreasonable to expect staff to memorise every possible combination of platform vs amount of coaches that fit.

I think it is perfectly reasonable.

Better training is needed. Disabled passengers are fare-paying service users and deserve better treatment

The problem is that no single person wants to take responsibility. They blame someone else or the system. So the disabled passenger is let down.

I appreciate the system works in most cases but there will often be mistakes, whether it be down to mis-communication or staff rushing to get the disabled passenger on board "anywhere" so as to get him on the train so to speak.

 

[221129]

I think it is perfectly reasonable.

When you can come back to me with every combination of stock at every platform in the country memorised then I might agree with you.

 

[Gloster]

I suspect that it is necessary for staff to undergo training before they are permitted to drive buggies, assist passengers, etc. Even in the 1970s I had to be passed out and a certificate was issued before I could operate an electric luggage trolley that moved at walking pace, was steered by the operator walking ahead of it using a tiller and stopped as soon as the spring-loaded tiller was released. I would think that a great deal more training and certification is required nowadays and wonder whether management are prepared to train a large number of staff to drive the buggy so that it is always possible to find someone, or whether they economise by only having a small pool of trained staff, which may mean at times there is nobody available.

 

[GALLANTON]

I think it is perfectly reasonable.

Better training is needed. Disabled passengers are fare-paying service users and deserve better treatment

The problem is that no single person wants to take responsibility. They blame someone else or the system. So the disabled passenger is let down.

I appreciate the system works in most cases but there will often be mistakes, whether it be down to mis-communication or staff rushing to get the disabled passenger on board "anywhere" so as to get him on the train so to speak.

So you're saying it'd be reasonable to expect station staff at Helensburgh to remember how many coaches fit into the platforms at Wick? It's totally not reasonable to expect staff to memorise every single train length and every platform length.

 

[43096]

I am unlikely to forget witnessing two members of Thameslink staff, one dispatcher and one driver, have a loud, sweary stand-up argument on the platform at London Bridge about who should assist a wheelchair user to leave the train, as delay minutes were racking up and said wheelchair user looking on from the train feeling decidedly unvalued as a customer.

Even if it wasn't either of their jobs, they have witnessed a customer service problem, and so as representatives of the company it's on them to see how it can be resolved, not to argue about it.

That attitude is unacceptable*, and it still exists.

* If it'd been my private business I'd have sacked both of them on the spot (to me arguing and swearing in the presence of customers is clear gross misconduct), though no doubt on the railway even if it was reported they'd have got away with a meeting with tea and no biscuits and continuing as normal the next day with their attitude unchanged.

Too often this the railway attitude and we’re seeing the excuses made in this thread for it.

I’ve seen it myself: getting on a train at London Victoria, there was a lady in a wheelchair still waiting to get off. So I asked her what had happened and she said no one had turned up to help even though she had booked assistance. I went and found someone who looked decidedly disinterested, but eventually - about two minutes before departure of the return working - someone turned up with a ramp. Had they not done so, the passcom was going to be pulled to prevent departure.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I know for a fact in my work if I was aksed to do someone else's job as well as my own, I'd want extra pay. I wouldn't do two jobs for the pay of one.

I don't know what line of work you are in but if you were in my industry and took that attitude, you'd be out on your ear!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Passenger Assistance is not a babysitting service. To have a proper system the assistance should almost be invisible.

I don't think that provides adequate reassurance.

It should be no effort for the person needing the help.

I agree.

And the staff certainly should not be “handing off” someone, they’re human not some object.

"Goodbye, Mr Smith, this is your guard, he will take over your assistance from here".
"Hello, Mr Smith, I'm your guard and I'm responsible for your assistance until I pass you over to the platform staff at X. If you need me in emergency you can use the button here. I'll come back a couple of minutes before we arrive at X to let you know what is happening, and I won't leave the train until I've introduced you to the platform staff who will assist you on the station".

What problem do you see in this? It sounds like excellent customer service to me.

 

[221129]

I don't know what line of work you are in but if you were in my industry and took that attitude, you'd be out on your ear!

Which is totally irrelevant.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

And it would take how long to deal with that during a 1 minute booked station stop?

Clearly disabled passengers are a nuisance to the railway as they delay services

 

[221129]

I don't think that provides adequate reassurance.



I agree.



"Goodbye, Mr Smith, this is your guard, he will take over your assistance from here".
"Hello, Mr Smith, I'm your guard and I'm responsible for your assistance until I pass you over to the platform staff at X. If you need me in emergency you can use the button here. I'll come back a couple of minutes before we arrive at X to let you know what is happening, and I won't leave the train until I've introduced you to the platform staff who will assist you on the station".

What problem do you see in this? It sounds like excellent customer service to me.

So how does this work in a 2 minute station stop when you need to pass on a lot more critical things at the other end of the train? Or are we extending all crew changes and delaying trains on the off chance? How does this work if you have multiple passengers throughout the train?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So how does this work in a 2 minute station stop when you need to pass on a lot more critical things at the other end of the train? Or are we extending all crew changes and delaying trains on the off chance? How does this work if you have multiple passengers throughout the train?

It's quite rightly no longer acceptable to treat disabled people as dirt on your shoe, so it's down to the railway to find a solution for that, not to complain about what it might cost.

In practice it means that:
1. At stations where you have a lot of need for assistance, yes, you'll need to pad things out.
2. At stations where you rarely do, a bit of late running is accepted for this sort of reason.

 

[221129]

not to complain about what it might cost.

I'm sure the railways don't care how much it will cost, the fare payers and tax payers probably will though.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

When you can come back to me with every combination of stock at every platform in the country memorised then I might agree with you.

No.

You do this for the station that you regularly work at. You get to know your regular stock.

You don't need to know this for every platform in the country unless you work at a different station every day up and down the country

So you're saying it'd be reasonable to expect station staff at Helensburgh to remember how many coaches fit into the platforms at Wick? It's totally not reasonable to expect staff to memorise every single train length and every platform length.

I don't know your area but if there were regular services from Helensburgh to Wick then yes, I would expect staff to know.

"I don't know" is not a valid defence. If you truly value customer service work and put the passenger at the heart of everything you do, then you would make it your duty to remember

 

[221129]

No.

You do this for the station that you regularly work at. You get to know your regular stock.

You don't need to know this for every platform in the country unless you work at a different station every day up and down the country

Good luck trying to do that for any medium to large station. Say New St for example, You'd need to know all stations up to Aberdeen and down to Penzance, Bournemouth into Wales etc. Yeah, sure.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good luck trying to do that for any medium to large station. Say New St for example, You'd need to know all stations up to Aberdeen and down to Penzance, Bournemouth into Wales etc. Yeah, sure.

You'd not need to do anything of the sort, because a lot of stock only has one or two wheelchair spaces anyway, and most services that call at New St (to use that example) don't serve any platforms the train doesn't fit in, and use the traditional guard operated ramp.

You'd simply need to know the exceptions.