Disabled Passenger Over-Carried

[Islineclear3_1]

Good luck trying to do that for any medium to large station. Say New St for example, You'd need to know all stations up to Aberdeen and down to Penzance, Bournemouth into Wales etc. Yeah, sure.

Nope

Using your example, if you work at New Street, you learn the layout and train types/lengths. If a disabled passenger wants to go to a station between New Street and Aberdeen, you contact the member of staff at that station who is in turn, expected to know the layout of his station. Same for anyone travelling to a station between New Street and Penzance. You call up another member of staff at that station, who again, is expected to know the layout and train types.

It really isn't rocket science. Simple communication, e.g. a telephone call from the departing station to the arrival station.

 

[221129]

Nope

Using your example, if you work at New Street, you learn the layout and train types/lengths. If a disabled passenger wants to go to a station between New Street and Aberdeen, you contact the member of staff at that station who is in turn, expected to know the layout of his station. Same for anyone travelling to a station between New Street and Penzance. You call up another member of staff at that station, who again, is expected to know the layout and train types.

It really isn't rocket science. Simple communication, e.g. a telephone call from the departing station to the arrival station.

Which is what happens now... which is apparently the problem?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Which is what happens now... which is apparently the problem?

And now I might then agree with you. Miscommunication

 

[Scott1]

Where this falls apart for me is DOO. If a person confined to a wheelchair is assisted onto a train without level boarding and are going to an unmanned station then the hope is the driver not forgetting to get out and put the ramp down, and that's assuming they can do it. The sad reality is all too often that doesn't happen, and I advise passengers to ask another passenger to 'keep an eye out' that they get out the cab, or a great system but I can't see an alternative without more staff.

On my patch we cover a fair few unmanned stations so we're all used to getting the ramp out, but on DOO you just have to hope the driver see's you waiting on the platform, and if your access need isn't obvious you've no hope. Even if you book there's a good chance the booking won't be seen by the driver because they can't check there work phone while driving, so on the day or turn up and go doesn't work.

Reality is it all boils down to cost. There's solutions, have an OBS on all trains for example, or ensure all unmanned stations have level boarding and trains have gap fillers, but its not in any employee or even TOCs gift to change things at the more heavy lifting side.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Level boarding is indeed the game-changer. It's such a shame that so many trains were ordered without it that we're now stuck with for the next 30-50 years.

 

[221129]

Where this falls apart for me is DOO. If a person confined to a wheelchair is assisted onto a train without level boarding and are going to an unmanned station then the hope is the driver not forgetting to get out and put the ramp down, and that's assuming they can do it. The sad reality is all too often that doesn't happen, and I advise passengers to ask another passenger to 'keep an eye out' that they get out the cab, or a great system but I can't see an alternative without more staff.

On my patch we cover a fair few unmanned stations so we're all used to getting the ramp out, but on DOO you just have to hope the driver see's you waiting on the platform, and if your access need isn't obvious you've no hope. Even if you book there's a good chance the booking won't be seen by the driver because they can't check there work phone while driving, so on the day or turn up and go doesn't work.

Reality is it all boils down to cost. There's solutions, have an OBS on all trains for example, or ensure all unmanned stations have level boarding and trains have gap fillers, but its not in any employee or even TOCs gift to change things at the more heavy lifting side.

Good luck finding a driver that will put a ramp down unless it is a genuine life and death emergency.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Where this falls apart for me is DOO. If a person confined to a wheelchair is assisted onto a train without level boarding and are going to an unmanned station then the hope is the driver not forgetting to get out and put the ramp down, and that's assuming they can do it. The sad reality is all too often that doesn't happen, and I advise passengers to ask another passenger to 'keep an eye out' that they get out the cab, or a great system but I can't see an alternative without more staff.

On my patch we cover a fair few unmanned stations so we're all used to getting the ramp out, but on DOO you just have to hope the driver see's you waiting on the platform, and if your access need isn't obvious you've no hope. Even if you book there's a good chance the booking won't be seen by the driver because they can't check there work phone while driving, so on the day or turn up and go doesn't work.

Reality is it all boils down to cost. There's solutions, have an OBS on all trains for example, or ensure all unmanned stations have level boarding and trains have gap fillers, but its not in any employee or even TOCs gift to change things at the more heavy lifting side.

DOO is a problem in this context and it shouldn't be up to the driver to leave his cab and assist a disabled passenger. What if he is driving a 12-car train and the disabled passenger is dumped put on at the other end? How many minutes is the train delayed?

Communication should be that a member of platform staff at the arrival station is informed in advance, and in which coach the passenger is in so that he can be in position. And if it is an unmanned station, then the TOC should send assistance from the nearest staff station. This does happen as a couple of years ago, my wife and I travelled on a train from Lewisham to New Beckenham with her brother, in a wheelchair and SE sent a member of platform staff from Lewisham to travel on the train to assist us off at New Beckenham (which was unmanned at the time we arrived)

 

[ashkeba]

Yes, it still needs work but it’s not a bad system. There are many more success stories than mistakes- you just don’t hear about them

Is 'many more success stories than mistakes' really thought good enough by anyone?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good luck finding a driver that will put a ramp down unless it is a genuine life and death emergency.

<sigh>

 

[miklcct]

Why not just use short trains at short platforms and have long trains skip the stations with short platforms? It will be complete chaos when a few carriages full of passengers have to walk a few carriages to get off. If all trains are guaranteed to fit all the platforms the problem will not exist at the beginning.

In Hong Kong, the whole East Rail Line will be converted from 12-car trains to 9-car trains because it has to be extended to a place where a 12-car station can't be built. The reduced capacity will be compensated by increased frequency when the train replacement is completed. Some people proposed that some old 12-car trains should be kept which will run short on the old section of the line only but it was not accepted.

Furthermore, why aren't all stations built with wheelchair access in mind in the UK, like in other countries? Using the Hong Kong example again, new stations are all built with wheelchair access in mind and old stations are retrofitted with lift access as well. I think it's the same in China or in other European countries I have visited as well.

 

[Energy]

Good luck finding a driver that will put a ramp down unless it is a genuine life and death emergency.

Isn't it their job if it is a DOO station and their is no staff there? Why should disabled passengers be treated more like an inconvenience than a fair paying passenger.

I know for a fact in my work if I was aksed to do someone else's job as well as my own, I'd want extra pay. I wouldn't do two jobs for the pay of one.

Thats like being trained for First Aid and then deciding you need a pay raise or you won't put a plaster on someone.

The ‘accessible’ space on a class 720 is in one of the end driving vehicles. When the trains were being designed it was suggested that this would be better placed in the centre car of the five as on cl700. The response was that the London end of a unit was preferable and that units wouldn’t get turned!

Surely anyone who knows the platforms will be a little short would think to put it in the middle coach, then again Abellio didn't make the best decisions on GA.

 

[Gloster]

To my mind one of the problems in this country is liability and ambulance chasing lawyers. A driver puts down a ramp for a disabled passenger, but either the driver makes an error putting the ramp in place or the passenger makes a mess of their use of it: result, one injured passenger. All too often the railway will then find itself on the end of a case for negligence, etc. Drivers would be likely to feel, not without reason, that management will sell them down the river.

 

[221129]

Isn't it their job if it is a DOO station and their is no staff there?

No. Their job is to drive the train.

 

[Energy]

To my mind one of the problems in this country is liability and ambulance chasing lawyers. A driver puts down a ramp for a disabled passenger, but either the driver makes an error putting the ramp in place or the passenger makes a mess of their use of it: result, one injured passenger. All too often the railway will then find itself on the end of a case for negligence, etc. Drivers would be likely to feel, not without reason, that management will sell them down the river.

Surely if there is an unstaffed DOO station then drivers should be properly trained in putting a ramp down then.

 

[221129]

Surely if there is an unstaffed DOO station then drivers should be properly trained in putting a ramp down then.

Or, imagine this, have a second member of staff on board every train...

 

[Energy]

No. Their job is to drive the train.

And? Does that mean they can only drive a train and do nothing else? You have to expect some flexibility, to use the first aid example again its like a teacher trained in first aid refusing to put a plaster on a student because they aren't paid to be a school nurse.

Or, imagine this, have a second member of staff on board every train...

A disabled person being let on and off a train should be regardless of DOO, though this shouldn't be the drivers job.

 

[Scott1]

Surely if there is an unstaffed DOO station then drivers should be properly trained in putting a ramp down then.

Yes, but that creates its own problem, ignoring any issues where the driver is unable to, bad back for example, it adds dwell time, if its raining then when they get back to the cab they have to dry and clean their glasses and change out of their coat, and it doesn't solve the problem where they don't know someone needs help. This is fine for wheelchairs users, where its obvious, but not for other impairments such as vision where unless the drivers eagle eyed they may miss a white stick as they pull past into the platform.

Without a gaurd or OBS you can't have a turn up and go system, you'd have to book at least 24 hours before, so you still end up with a worse service for some passengers. This is, of course, where you end up debating what is a 'reasonable' adjustment. Is the cost of a second person on board justified, or do we accept that you need to give 24 hours notice if you need assistance to use a train? I don't know the answer myself.

 

[RHolmes]

And? Does that mean they can only drive a train and do nothing else?

A driver should not be carrying out passenger assistance duties on top of their safety critical work, especially in the land of DOO where they are carrying out additional dispatch tasks.

For example, a driver passes a signal on a single yellow, they arrive at the station safely, release the doors and walk the length of the train to provide ramp assistance to a passenger, they safely stow the ramp, walk all the way back to their cab, prepare for dispatch, set off reaching line, they’ve forgot to set the DRA as they’ve been focusing on the passenger and they sail straight through a red signal or accept a wrong route indicator. Game Over.

 

[Energy]

A driver should not be carrying out passenger assistance duties on top of their safety critical work, especially in the land of DOO where they are carrying out additional dispatch tasks.

For example, a driver passes a signal on a single yellow, they arrive at the station safely, release the doors and walk the length of the train to provide ramp assistance to a passenger, they safely stow the ramp, walk all the way back to their cab, prepare for dispatch, set off reaching line, they’ve forgot to set the DRA as they’ve been focusing on the passenger and they sail straight through a red signal or accept a wrong route indicator. Game Over.

This shouldn't be the drivers job, I agree. But it shouldn't be taken out by making life difficult for disabled passengers.

Is the cost of a second person on board justified, or do we accept that you need to give 24 hours notice if you need assistance to use a train? I don't know the answer myself.

Ideally all stations should have at least one staff member if there isn't a guard.

 

[TheAlbanach_]

I don't think that provides adequate reassurance.



I agree.



"Goodbye, Mr Smith, this is your guard, he will take over your assistance from here".
"Hello, Mr Smith, I'm your guard and I'm responsible for your assistance until I pass you over to the platform staff at X. If you need me in emergency you can use the button here. I'll come back a couple of minutes before we arrive at X to let you know what is happening, and I won't leave the train until I've introduced you to the platform staff who will assist you on the station".

What problem do you see in this? It sounds like excellent customer service to me.

How would this work when you have say 10 passengers with assistance on one train? Just delay the train until every passenger has been introduced to the guard?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How would this work when you have say 10 passengers with assistance on one train? Just delay the train until every passenger has been introduced to the guard?

Yes.

 

[507020]

Only on the railway would this kind of thing be an issue. In any other industry it'd be a welcome break as a change from regular duties to drive the buggy once in a while.

It's not like we're talking about asking them to clean the bogs. It's just asking a member of customer service staff to do a slightly different customer service role for a short period of time.

If the buggy driving role would be paid more, you could always pay the extra for the time spent buggy-driving.

It's clearly not two jobs, as you can't be doing both at once. At any one time you are either buggy driving or selling tickets. Though I did just have the amusing image in my head of someone driving a buggy while chucking out rolls of tickets on an old SPORTIS

At Southport station (and presumably other Merseyrail stations, which will all soon have level boarding) ticket vending staff are required to clean the bogs at the end of service, with no dedicated staff getting paid for it. I don’t understand why.

How would this work when you have say 10 passengers with assistance on one train? Just delay the train until every passenger has been introduced to the guard?

Just introduce the 10 passengers to the guard as a group.

If DOO is in use, delay the train until a hiring process has been carried out and a suitable number of people have been employed as guards to provide assistance to disabled passengers who wish to use unstaffed stations. Alternatively hire a team of builders to construct a new station building to house a member of staff, preferably in a Victorian style with glass canopy, to match the original building at that station that was demolished when it became unstaffed.

 

[al78]

If you have too few people trained to reasonably ensure the service is provided in the context of expected sickness (and COVID has been around long enough for that to be expected), then you're not making adequate "reasonable adjustments".

Unfortunately in the south of England that is how businesses seem to be run, with the absolute bare minimum of staff that function well only in a narrow range of normal conditions, so with no slack in the system and any perturbation, it all goes tits up with the consequences dumped on the customers. This is why if you want service, you often have to wait, and wait, and wait, and wait, and wait in a queue.

 

[507020]

Unfortunately in the south of England that is how businesses seem to be run, with the absolute bare minimum of staff that function well only in a narrow range of normal conditions, so with no slack in the system and any perturbation, it all goes tits up with the consequences dumped on the customers. This is why if you want service, you often have to wait, and wait, and wait, and wait, and wait in a queue.

What they need to do in all businesses in the south of England (as well as the north of England, wales and Scotland and public bodies that aren’t businesses) is employ a vastly larger number of people who all work less hours as standard to create slack in the system.

Another issue is that when staff are brain dead or don’t speak a word of English, any job is beyond their capabilities. The consequences of this are worse than the worst case scenario at an unstaffed station. I was told by a guard that these are often agency staff on minimum wage, to cover for the lack of capable staff.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned thus far is that the service provided by those booking the assistance for customers isn't perfect.

I've lost count of the number of times we've had bookings come through for ramp assists at stations where the only access is by a footbridge that only has stairs.

Extra bonus points when no contact number for the passenger has been provided so we're unable to make alternative arrangements in advance.

 

[matt_world2004]

What TOC and unit was it?

It would have e been the platform staff at Romford responsible for getting him off though and they are tfl rail

 

[Horizon22]

So you're saying it'd be reasonable to expect station staff at Helensburgh to remember how many coaches fit into the platforms at Wick? It's totally not reasonable to expect staff to memorise every single train length and every platform length.

No but what you can do is phone ahead and check. Or you check with the relevant guard beforehand.

It is not hard to avoid errors like this - relevant route knowledge and / or good communication with on-train staff or someone at Control to clarify if you are unsure. At least it was missed assistance which in my eyes is worse (although probably is of zero comfort to the unfortunate overcarried passenger).

Some places obviously have NR mobility staff who are not as clued up as the relevant TOC on their trains, however again simple communication prevents errors.

 

[seagull]

Yes.

Let's get rid of timetables then.

 

[Horizon22]

But it's not asking you to do someone else's job as well as your own. It's asking you to do it temporarily instead of your own. You wouldn't be working any extra hours, and you'd only be doing one of the two jobs at any one time.

This lack of flexibility is ingrained in the railway, and as someone who has only ever worked in the private sector I really find it very difficult to understand how it can be justified to segment roles in this manner.

It's not totally unknown, though. At small single-manned stations like most of Merseyrail, the ticket office staff go out and grit the platforms if it's icey. It's just comparable to that. Normally the person whose job it is to drive the buggy does that, but if they're off sick it's just cover for an essential service.

Staff on mobility buggies (at NR stations anyway) do need extra training and a risk assessment / competency due to the issue of buggy potentially hitting something / someone around busy stations and, in a worse case scenario, falling onto the track which is not unheard of. However if it was going towards London, they probably didn't have this facility at GA so its a moot point. Those buggy drivers will do additional jobs though when not driving.

As for the "lack of flexibility", a significant chunk is taken up (reasonably I'd say) by safety - various roles require safety checks / assessments / competencies and therefore having everyone trained in everything adds a huge workload on assessors for something that an individual might do in a blue moon, as well as on the individual to keep up a huge range of varied knowledge whilst conducting their main role 90-95% of the time. Definitely room for some extra flexibility - and I think all front line station staff have core passenger assistance training - but it's not always so cut and dry.

 

[43066]

I am unlikely to forget witnessing two members of Thameslink staff, one dispatcher and one driver, have a loud, sweary stand-up argument on the platform at London Bridge about who should assist a wheelchair user to leave the train, as delay minutes were racking up and said wheelchair user looking on from the train feeling decidedly unvalued as a customer.

Lots wrong with that, and clearly it’s unprofessional.

However there is absolutely no question: it was the platform staff member’s responsibility. Drivers, including “pure” DOO ones, are not even ramp trained. Staff members who go around swearing at their colleagues won’t last long - not least because a driver would be quite within their rights to decide they felt unfit to drive following aggression of that sort.

"Sorry I cannot help you board this train and you will be left behind. I don't get paid for it."

More likely: “I cannot help you board this train because I haven’t been trained to do it, and if something went wrong I’d get the blame and possibly the sack”

Unless the person appears on the platform at the last second, you should surely have some warning or prep time before conducting your work. Even if they do, you check if you aren't sure, because the 30 seconds checking is well worth it versus for example having a passcom pulled and potentially repositioning the train.

In fairness *any* passenger arriving on the platform at the last second is a candidate to be left behind. Why should hundreds of people who have boarded the train in good time be delayed for one person who has arrived late?!