disabled persons railcard

[dave4jackie]

if someone has a disabled persons railcard is it possible for them to say buy a ticket from preston to london with railcard and also one from crewe to london for a person who will travel with them from crewe only or do both tickets have to be from and to the same place,in this example preston to london

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Technically the only requirement is that the holder of the second ticket must travel with the railcard holder at all times on the journey. So on the face of it, this would be OK.

BUT....

If the second ticket holder was checked on a platform in a compulsory ticket area or at a barrier before joining the card holder, how would they prove they were not trying to travel fraudulently on a discounted ticket? The ticket is not valid except in the presence of the railcard holder.

It could also get very interesting if for any reason the second person inadvertently managed to board a different train from the one intended and the railcard holder was not on that particular train...

 

[Be3G]

If the second ticket holder was checked on a platform in a compulsory ticket area or at a barrier before joining the card holder, how would they prove they were not trying to travel fraudulently on a discounted ticket? The ticket is not valid except in the presence of the railcard holder.

Good point – whilst waiting for a train, the second ticket holder would be in a compulsory ticket area without holding a valid ticket. But there could be a sneaky way around that: a platform ticket.

 

[M60lad]

What checks are normally done before a disabled persons rail card is actually issued, just that I suffer from a mild form of Epilepsy controlled by medication so therefor don't have a driving license or probably would be refused one if I applied for one, if I applied would I need the reason for refusal of a driving license or would it be like when I applied for my Disabled Bus Pass and that a check with the doctor would be sufficient

 

[SickyNicky]

If there's a chance you're eligible under the existing rules (I don't know) I suggest you get an application in soon.

The rules are due to change soon, tightening up on eligibility, but I understand that those who already have a card will be entitled to keep renewing it even if they don't meet the new criteria.

 

[dggar]

What checks are normally done before a disabled persons rail card is actually issued, just that I suffer from a mild form of Epilepsy controlled by medication so therefor don't have a driving license or probably would be refused one if I applied for one, if I applied would I need the reason for refusal of a driving license or would it be like when I applied for my Disabled Bus Pass and that a check with the doctor would be sufficient

See the last posting on this thread

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=75828

 

[dave4jackie]

i have had it confirmed by atoc that both tickets have to be the same just like family and friends railcard

 

[LexyBoy]

My opinion is that there is no need to have a ticket until you board train (CTAs excepted, and there are very few of these). Not to say that gateline staff wouldn't question it (especially problematic if trying to leave the station without the Railcard holder) - but there's unlikely to be any need to show them anyway (assuming it's an automatic barrier).

i have had it confirmed by atoc that both tickets have to be the same just like family and friends railcard

There is no such requirement for the Family and Friends Railcard.

 

[bnm]

i have had it confirmed by atoc that both tickets have to be the same just like family and friends railcard

It's not in the terms and conditions of either Railcard so I don't see how this can be enforced, or indeed even be suggested by ATOC.

Recently I travelled with a Freedom of Severn/Solent 3 in 7 Rover and a companion joined me for a couple of trips using Off Peak Day Returns. I, as the Railcard holder, purchased all the tickets at the same time. This wasn't queried, nor were the tickets when inspected on board.

Seems to me with have another case of ATOC making it up as they go along.

 

[dave4jackie]

i have had it confirmed by atoc that both tickets have to be the same just like family and friends railcard

if you have access to the manual look under family railcard and it says there that tickets have to be the same origin and destination

 

[LexyBoy]

if you have access to the manual look under family railcard and it says there that tickets have to be the same origin and destination

I don't have access to The Manual, being just a passenger. Instead I read the Terms and Conditions of the Railcard, the relevant parts of which are:

6. You must carry your Railcard with you on your journey and when asked by rail staff, you must show a valid ticket and valid Railcard. If you fail to do so, you and each member of your group will be required to pay the full price Standard Single fare for your journey as if no tickets were purchased before starting the journey and in some cases a Penalty Fare. This does not apply if there was no ticket office at the station at which you began your journey or if the ticket office was closed and there was no ticket machine from which you could buy discounted tickets.

7. Additional accompanying passengers for whom discounted tickets are purchased must travel with the Railcard holder throughout the journey.

(The Terms for the Disabled Railcard include a clause similar to the above 6, but not 7)

I suppose the question is what "the journey" in Condition 7 means: is it throughout their journey or thoughout the Railcard holder's journey. I have always read it as being the former, applying to each individual passenger's journey.

In any case I have never had any problems buying tickets for a passenger only covering part of the whole journey made by the Railcard holder. I think the intention is to prevent tickets being sold where a passenger would travel without the Railcard holder.

 

[bb21]

Extracts from The Manual:

Size of group
The minimum 'Family & Friends' group consists of at least one adult named on the Railcard and at least one child. Adults cannot travel alone on discount price tickets purchased with this Railcard.

The maximum group size is four adults (including either one or both named cardholders) and four children.

A child is anyone aged between 5 and 15 years when the Railcard is issued. Children aged under 16 at the time that the Railcard is purchased may still travel at the discounted child’s fare throughout the validity period of the one-year Railcard, or, for a three-year Railcard, up to and including the day before their 17th birthday.

Children under 5 travel free and each adult may take up to two ‘under 5s’ with them, in addition to the maximum group size.

If the only child in the ‘Family & Friends’ group is under 5, then that child must have a child’s discounted price ticket. This still offers the advantage of the minimum ‘Family & Friends’ group facility allowed.

Discounted price tickets purchased by a Family & Friends Railcard holder should be issued for travel for the same origin and destination and should normally be of the same ticket type (example all Off-Peak Returns). However the Railcard group can be extended either on the outward or return journey, up to the maximum group size detailed above. If the group size is increased for a complete return journey then discounted price tickets of the same type can be either purchased in advance of travel or at the ticket office before the journey commences.

If the group size is increased for only the outward or return leg of a journey, then appropriate discounted single tickets should be issued for the new members of the group. It is in this situation that the ticket type may vary.

The group, whatever the size, must stay together throughout the journey as the Family & Friends Railcard validates all tickets.

Apparently the tickets do need to be for the same origin-destination combination. The only variation permitted is the group size in the outward and return legs.

That said, words to that effect also exist in The Manual for Network Railcard, and we certainly have had tales from people successfully obtaining tickets with differing origin-destination combinations on the same Railcard in the past from ticket offices. YMMV

 

[bnm]

Ultimately, that is not public information. The T&Cs that are in the public domain don't make it explicit that all tickets must be of the same type/origin/destination.

Therefore, any penalty for not holding tickets of the same type or not travelling between the same origin and/or destination would, I believe, be unenforceable.

 

[bb21]

Neither does it explicitly permit it. We're in a grey area I'm afraid.

We are sidetracking the issue anyway as I have realised that the OP was asking about the terms of Disabled Railcard, which do not appear to contain the paragraphs I quoted above for Family & Friends Railcard.

 

[LexyBoy]

That said, words to that effect also exist in The Manual for Network Railcard, and we certainly have had tales from people successfully obtaining tickets with differing origin-destination combinations on the same Railcard in the past from ticket offices. YMMV

What The Manual says about Gold Cards would be interesting, as these are obviously often used in this way.

As I say, I frequently buy tickets with different origin/destination combinations using a Family Railcard. Usually this is because my Season covers part of my journey, but other times an extra person has joined for part of the journey. I have had no problems either asking for such tickets or using them.

 

[wintonian]

I would say it is valid, as I recall the only stipulation is that the the accompanying person must travel with the railcard holder, I'm not going to explain how one gets through a compulsory ticket area or barriers legitimately cause I don't know.

 

[telstarbox]

Could the Preston-London traveller buy Crewe-London tickets and excess one of them (without presenting the second ticket) to start from Preston before travel, or can excesses not be applied at the 'origin end' of a ticket?

 

[bb21]

What The Manual says about Gold Cards would be interesting, as these are obviously often used in this way.

Extracts from The Manual regarding Annual Gold Card:

Size of group

The adult named on the Annual Gold Card, paying the appropriate Annual Gold Card discounted fare if the journey is not covered by their Season ticket, plus:
•Up to three other adults aged 16 or over, paying the appropriate discounted fare.
•Up to four children aged over 4 and under 16 paying the flat fare.
•Up to two children aged under 5 at no charge.

The maximum group size is four adults, four flat fare-paying children and two children under 5 (who travel at no charge).

Note:
Up to 4 children aged under 11 accompanying the Annual Gold Card holder can travel free on London Underground and London Overground services and on other National Rail services between stations on designated ‘inter-available’ routes as defined in the London section, click here.

Annual Gold Card holders do not need to purchase a ticket for themselves if the journey to be undertaken is covered by the route validity of their Season Ticket. However, Annual Gold Card holders purchasing discounted Day Travelcards for accompanying adults or children, must also purchase one for themselves if their Annual Gold Card is not valid for travel in Fare Zones 1-6.

Discounted price tickets purchased by an Annual Gold Card holder should be issued for travel for the same origin and destination and should normally be of the same ticket type. However the Railcard group can be extended either on the outward or return journey, up to the maximum group size detailed above. If the group size is increased for a complete return journey then discounted price tickets of the same type can be either purchased in advance of travel or at the ticket office before the journey commences.

If the group size is increased for only the outward or return leg of a journey, then appropriate discounted Single tickets should be issued for the new members of the group. It is in this situation that the ticket type may vary.

The group, whatever the size, must stay together throughout the journey as the Annual Gold Card validates all tickets.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It's worth noting that 'The Manual' says "should" be issued for the same origin/destination and "should" be the same type, which implies that it is not actually a requirement.

As for how you get around the CTA issue, Railcard holder travels to the start point of the second passenger, makes their way through the ticket barriers (remaining on the station if BoJ is not permitted) and meets the second passenger, both passengers then pass through the barriers and board the next train for onward travel. Obviously this may not be possible with Advance tickets.

Could the Preston-London traveller buy Crewe-London tickets and excess one of them (without presenting the second ticket) to start from Preston before travel, or can excesses not be applied at the 'origin end' of a ticket?

Over-riding (over-distance) excess fares should only be applied to the destination of a ticket, not the origin.

 

[LexyBoy]

So it says the same for the Gold Card, which is more obviously silly because it's a given that one of the travellers has a season ticket. OK, it says that the GC holder doesn't need to buy a ticket if the journey is covered by their GC, but surely "for the journey covered by the Gold Card" would make more sense.

It's worth noting that 'The Manual' says "should" be issued for the same origin/destination and "should" be the same type, which implies that it is not actually a requirement.

Thanks for pointing this out - common sense applied? hock: