Disabled woman: no assistance available from East Coast

[Greenback]

My understanding is that East Coast have a bevy of on-call managers, whose responsibility it is to ensure that resources (including themselves, if necessary) are in place to deal with issues arising from late running trains after network disruption. Whatever the 'normal' staffing level is for Kings Cross at midnight, it will be inadequate to deal with requests for taxis, hotels, onward travel advice, locking up of sets before them going off to the depot and passenger assistance. The real question then, is whether EC made any effort to supplement the night staff and if not, why not?

I would assume that extyra staff were there otherwise there would have been far more reports of stranded travellers unable to gain assistance on arrival.

I still believe that, despite extra staff, the assistance list was overlooked or misread, and that we will never eliminate this sor tof thing happening entirely.

 

[Flamingo]

I would have thought that, before leaving the train, the crew should do a sweep through to check if there is anyone left on - particularly at midnight, when sleeping passengers are quite likely. Is this part of procedures?

Unless it is in the crews diagram to lock and secure the set (which wouldn't be normal on arrival at a major terminus), then they wouldn't expect to do so. It's usually the platform staff's responsibility. It depends on the station, but if I was taking a set into Pad, Bristol or Swansea I would not normally do that. Cardiff, Weston, Cheltenham I would be diagrammed to do it.

The assist list is inaccurate as soon as disruption occurs, as nobody is sure where anybody is.

 

[wintonian]

Could depend on how you do it! However, I'm interested to know the evidence which points to being charged for assault if you wake someone up. And who should if the guard doesn't? No one is exempt from an assault charge so the suggestion seems to be that they must be left there until they wake up because presumably if the guard can't, no one can.

Sounds like an excuse to me. Can see the headline... "Disabled Passenger left to sleep on train all night." Spokesman for Network Rail said staff have been instructed not to wake people up because they may get charged with assault.

If I was a guard I would be more worried about being assaulted.

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

And why the hell wasn't there any cleaners checking the train and why did the guard not notice? Seriously?
Personally I wouldn't be surprised if EC got sued for this, but with current legal problems and its fellow nine yards...

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I've always wondered why in a situation of distress getting loads of money as a result would make you feel better?

'You say you haven't been the same since you had your little crash but you might feel better if they gave you some cash.' Get Over It - Eagles

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

I've always wondered why in a situation of distress getting loads of money as a result would make you feel better?

'You say you haven't been the same since you had you're little crash but you might feel better if they gave you some cash.' Get Over It - Eagles

Money's just the best compensation ever...I mean think about how many train tickets you can buy if you get wads of compensation! (and a number of other non-nameable reasons)

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Money's just the best compensation ever...I mean think about how many train tickets you can buy if you get wads of compensation! (and a number of other non-nameable reasons)

For those shallow enough to be entertained by hoards of money, yes. I'd want to make sure they improved for others, not see them throw money at me.

 

[jon0844]

Could use a foghorn but that would probably count as causing distress. :roll:

Quite often people say things like the above (and I realise you were joking) as an excuse. People often believe it, which helps spread the rumours about the crazy health and safety rules, and the world has gone mad stories etc..

I very much doubt anyone could, or has, been charged (let alone found guilty) of assult for waking someone else up - but if you don't want to do it, why not make up a reason for not doing it.

And I also don't believe in compensation, unless there was an actual monetary loss - or there will be in the future as a consequence of what happened. Otherwise an apology and assurances of how things will be rectified is far more useful. Once compensation becomes a goal, it encourages people to allow things to go wrong - even hope or help it to happen - for monetary gain. There's also little incentive to want to try and get things fixed if there's a chance of more money in the future.

 

[NY Yankee]

Across the pond, less than 25% of the stations in the NYC subway have elevators (lifts). However, every station in the Washington DC Metro is accessible to the disabled.

 

[michael769]

I don't think there is any suggestion that she is seeking compensation or intends to sue anyone.

Her goal seems to be to raise awareness amongst both the public and the railways of the difficulties that disabled passengers can face when they get forgotten in the hope that it will in future encourage a little more though and attention to detail.

Of course things will sometimes go wrong - but what I hope we all want it that those sometimes are as infrequent as it is possible to make them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I very much doubt anyone could, or has, been charged (let alone found guilty) of assult for waking someone else up - but if you don't want to do it, why not make up a reason for not doing it.

I agree - the requisite mens rea (guilty intent) simply does not exist. People touch entire strangers every day for the purpose of rendering them assistance (in this case the waker upper is trying to assist someone in completing their journey) and they do not get charged with assault!

I have woken a couple of folks up on the train and after the normal confusion and groggyness passes they are invariably grateful to not find themselves waking up miles from where they were trying to get to.

 

[BestWestern]

I very much doubt anyone could, or has, been charged (let alone found guilty) of assult for waking someone else up - but if you don't want to do it, why not make up a reason for not doing it.

Why do you suggest that somebody would 'not want' to wake a sleeping passenger at a terminus point to the extent that they would 'make up' a reason?! A rather odd sentiment; if people have a genuine reason for not wishing to physically awaken a member of the public who they don't know from Adam then that's perfectly fair enough.

There is, in my view, a very valid argument that some people do not feel comfortable touching a sleeping stranger. Many 'sleepers' will not wake up with a gentle tap on the shoulder, and I would certainly take the view that anything other than that is outside of my remit as a Guard. I do not particularly fancy being smacked in the face by a dozing, dazed passenger, possibly drunk or drugged or mentally unbalanced or whatever else, who has taken objection to being woken up by somebody standing over them, poking prodding or shaking them. Nor would I look forward to the inevitable advice from my employer that I shouldn't have been doing so in the first place. Personally I find a whistle usually does the trick of all else fails, but touching is the last resort and always to a bare minimum!

As for this unfortunate incident at Kings X, it just goes to show the folly of cutting things back to the bone to save a few quid. If the Guard was instructed to walk through his train, check and secure it before leaving, which is what most people would probably expect to happen after a long journey, then this would have been avoided, but sadly it seems economies and time/money saving are of greater importance in many situations. This all raises some very interesting questions about how our post-McNulty, unstaffed railway is going to operate. I presume that he is now heading up a team developing humanoids who will fulfil the requirements of the DDA whilst costing nothing...:roll:

 

[jon0844]

If you are worried about being assaulted, that's perhaps a valid reason.. but I was talking quite generally when I said that people may make up some ridiculous 'reason' to cover for the fact that they simply don't want to do something. It's certainly not limited to members of staff waking up some drunk on a late night train.

I say again, I very much doubt that anyone, anywhere, has been charged with assault for waking someone up. It's probably unlikely that someone woken up would assault the person that woke them too, but I am sure it could happen as there are plenty of bad people out there.

This does beg the question, however; who does get to wake up people left on a train if rail staff don't want to, or refuse to? And does your employer really tell you not to try and wake someone? If so, I suggest a bit of naming and shaming is in order here!

 

[sbt]

The London Ambulance Service really hate the 'do not touch' rule. They get called out where staff are unwilling to wake someone (on buses at least, not sure about rail) and it gets coded as a 'Person Unresponsive'. This leads to a high priority 'Blue Lights' run, with the attendant risk to LAS staff and the public on the roads, in addition to tieing up an Ambulance or Fast response Car and its crew. In addition, if the person was genuinely ill they are, of course, not receiving any help whilst waiting for the Ambulance.

 

[DarloRich]

And why the hell wasn't there any cleaners checking the train and why did the guard not notice? Seriously?
Personally I wouldn't be surprised if EC got sued for this, but with current legal problems and its fellow nine yards...

I have no idea what the second sentence to this post means!

Could East Coast be sued? Perhaps - but i doubt that is going to happen. It seems like the story is an attempt by someone in the public eye to highlight poor service she, as a disabled person, received with a hope that it wont happen to someone else.

Yes the story is a bit sensationalised but 11 time Paralympics champion left to crawl of train has a lot more impact than woman from Redcar receives bad service from train company.

The second story is a little column in the Northern Echo, the first is a full page in national newspapers. Which do you think has more impact?

 

[AlterEgo]

I really don't think Lady Grey-Thompson is bothered about retribution here.

The whole episode was very unfortunate, and I have every sympathy with her. I usually find people instantly going to the press to tell a story quite distasteful, but not in this case. She's simply gone to the press to highlight her treatment, and the fact that she is not alone. It's not a rant, nor is it scathing about individuals, nor is she trying to slag East Coast off for this one failing. She is seen (whether she likes it or not!) as a leader in the disability rights field. All she is doing is attempting to make a change to the way things are done for the benefit of other passengers.

As Greenback has suggested, I suspect she has fallen victim to a simple human error, which is galling for all parties - Lady Grey-Thompson, East Coast, and whoever is responsible for the mistake. There aren't really any winners here, and to be honest I will be interested to see if and how how the situation improves once the McNulty Report starts taking effect.

 

[DarloRich]

I really don't think Lady Grey-Thompson is bothered about retribution here.

The whole episode was very unfortunate, and I have every sympathy with her. I usually find people instantly going to the press to tell a story quite distasteful, but not in this case. She's simply gone to the press to highlight her treatment, and the fact that she is not alone. It's not a rant, nor is it scathing about individuals, nor is she trying to slag East Coast off for this one failing. She is seen (whether she likes it or not!) as a leader in the disability rights field. All she is doing is attempting to make a change to the way things are done for the benefit of other passengers.

As Greenback has suggested, I suspect she has fallen victim to a simple human error, which is galling for all parties - Lady Grey-Thompson, East Coast, and whoever is responsible for the mistake. There aren't really any winners here, and to be honest I will be interested to see if and how how the situation improves once the McNulty Report starts taking effect.

My thoughts exactly.

As an aside i have often wondered if train companies keep a log of the great and the good who use thier services to ensure they are kept sweet. After all me railing on twitter about X train co service goes to maybe 200 people. Stephen Fry, say, goes to millions! The answer, on this post, seems to be no!

 

[mailman]

What is telling though is the non-apology from the train company. Then again, I dont blame them because in todays world of corporate non-responsibility all they have done is what everyone else does. No one takes responsibility any more regardless of how wrong they are.

And sadly, in this case the train company is in the wrong and should have just held their hands up and said they f9cked up and that they would work hard to try to ensure this doesnt happen again. Instead what we got was the old "problems outside our control" excuse, as if that makes things alright!

Perhaps the real issue is that because no one has taken responsibility for this problem means that nothing will actually change because I guess to take responsibility is to admit liability, and we cant have that can we!

Mailman

 

[Greenback]

What is telling though is the non-apology from the train company. Then again, I dont blame them because in todays world of corporate non-responsibility all they have done is what everyone else does. No one takes responsibility any more regardless of how wrong they are.

And sadly, in this case the train company is in the wrong and should have just held their hands up and said they f9cked up and that they would work hard to try to ensure this doesnt happen again. Instead what we got was the old "problems outside our control" excuse, as if that makes things alright!

Perhaps the real issue is that because no one has taken responsibility for this problem means that nothing will actually change because I guess to take responsibility is to admit liability, and we cant have that can we!

Mailman

The article states that East Coast apologised. Perhaps they did say they would work hard to ensure that it didn't happen again, but it did not make the story in the end.

 

[SS4]

The article states that East Coast apologised. Perhaps they did say they would work hard to ensure that it didn't happen again, but it did not make the story in the end.

Certainly plausible. It would not be in the media's best interest to publish such a quote. Sadly with every story today you need to look at the angle they're coming from and portraying

 

[Flamingo]

I've been accused of being both racist and in breach of someone's Human Rights by waking them.

Totally coincidently, the needed to buy a ticket after I woke them.

 

[jon0844]

Totally coincidently, the needed to buy a ticket after I woke them.

Wow, that IS a coincidence! Must be a one-off...

 

[blacknight]

Just a passing thought but would this would have happened if East Coast had retained its call centre staff in Newcastle?

 

[ex-railwayman]

Even if this is done, the guard may be quite a while getting to somebody who remains on the train, particularly if they have to deal with other matters such as sleeping passengers on the way through.

There once was a guard at Nottingham iirc, who was an ex-Sergeant Major in the Grenadier Guards, he never touched sleeping pasengers, just stood at the end of the coach and announced that the train had terminated, nobody slept on after that.

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

 

[Flamingo]

Wow, that IS a coincidence! Must be a one-off...

Yep, never known it before or since...

 

[142094]

Just a passing thought but would this would have happened if East Coast had retained its call centre staff in Newcastle?

Hard to say. Not sure where this new PassAssist thing is co-ordinated from but I always found the call centre staff at GNER/NXEC/EC at Newcastle to be very good.

 

[jon0844]

There once was a guard at Nottingham iirc, who was an ex-Sergeant Major in the Grenadier Guards, he never touched sleeping pasengers, just stood at the end of the coach and announced that the train had terminated, nobody slept on after that.

Maybe see if Brian Blessed wants a career change?!

Sent via my Tandy TRS-80 using Tapatalk

 

[cyclebytrain]

Who can say if it's related to them moving from Newcastle or not.

I've twice had to help with stranded wheelchairs at Euston. Once I was heading towards the assistance desk and ran into a member of glc staff who I knew who (quite literally) ran to the platform and used the on-board ramp from coach H/J to get the wheelchair off. The other time I used a voice like ice on the staff at the assisted travel office at Euston (on that occasion THE wheelchair had someone with them who I accompanied who was very shaken up and didn't know which platform the train had arrived on -and was given ABSOLUTELY no help from the platform staff she spoke to (I saw from some way behind after having wheeled the bike out through the saloon of coach A).

Both of these happened at about 1300 (and at least 6 months ago in case anyone is wondering) which makes me think that at least VT have a systematic failing at EUS (in both cases the wheelchair boarded at the same station as me, which also is my local station and I'd stake everything that I've ever owned that they did everything right in regards to alerting Euston staff).

Whilst it personally doesn't affect me in the slightest, I hope that this story making the news improves matters for everyone in a wheelchair who travels by train.

 

[notoemt]

She's on five live now and has just said she didn't book disabled assistance on this particular occasion. Which appears to contradict the article.

 

[D1009]

Her ladyship is a disabled rights campaigner, politician and Welsh TV presenter, and therefore professional in using the media to further the cause. This may or may not involve telling the whole truth.

 

[YorkshireBear]

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