Discussion on Islamophobia and racism

[AlterEgo]

Some lovely Islamophobia in this thread. :roll:

 

[TheKnightWho]

Some lovely Islamophobia in this thread. :roll:

Yep.

There's a long and depressing history of people trying to rationalise and justify hatred, and as we all know history has a habit of repeating itself.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm guessing it's due to me bringing up that Sky News report of the knife attack on the tube that happened last December?

I think its because I referred in passing to "racism against Islamic people".

It's really quite tedious. Some Muslims are awful people, some Christians are, some atheists are. Most, on the other hand, are not.

I always quote Ezekiel 23:20 when we get into the willy-waving

 

[Tetchytyke]

All religions have violent people claiming to speak for them. Heck, even the Buddhists have terrorist monks.

Again, not sure what its got to do with the death penalty mind.

 

[Gutfright]

It's really quite tedious. Some Muslims are awful people, some Christians are, some atheists are. Most, on the other hand, are not.

The question is not really about whether Muslims are awful people, it's more about whether the verses in the Qur'an that promote violence, homophobia, misogyny etc should be exempt from criticism.

I would argue that violence, homophobia and misogyny are bad things even when it's a Muslim doing them. Obviously, this makes me a bigoted Islamophobe :roll:

 

[TheKnightWho]

The question is not really about whether Muslims are awful people, it's more about whether the verses in the Qur'an that promote violence, homophobia, misogyny etc should be exempt from criticism.

This is a completely different thing to what you were arguing before. That's some serious mission creep with your argument! No-one is saying that misogyny or homophobia are good - it's the massive, glaring assumptions that you tar all Muslims with that are the issue here, but then you've simply refused to acknowledge that your assumptions are even exist, and take them as some kind of objective fact!

Frankly, I'm going to bow out of this argument. It's very obvious that you have a very narrowminded idea of what Muslims are like, and refuse to admit that the vast majority are nothing like that.

It makes me sad that people like you speak from such ignorance, and it partiuclarly makes me sad that you, like many before you, try to justify bigotry by explaining that this particular kind of bigotry is actually fine, because all Muslims are extremists, or misogynistic, or hateful etc.

Please actually educate yourself about Islam, and please go out and meet some actual Muslims.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Who says they don't have any perspective?



Usually =/= always.



Susceptible to cues =/= completely powerless to adopt different cultural practices/ leave s religion.



None of them believe that the Qur'an is the word of God? Or none of them believe that God is perfect?

Sadly, I don't think that these atheist Muslims you hang about with are representative of most of the Muslim world.



It's okay for Islam to be violent, hateful etc etc because the Bible is violent, hateful etc etc?

Ever heard the phrase "two wrongs don't make a right"?

If people made arguments like weak where I'm from you'd get laughed out the room... You still haven't engaged with what I've said - hell, I'm not sure you even realise that the issue is your assumptions, and not the conclusions you come to because of those assumptions. The response to someone making that argument is not to keep making them and insisting your conclusions are correct.

How many Muslims do you know personally?

 

[Tetchytyke]

All the Abrahamic religions have equal amounts of blood, guts and gore. It's strange how people only focus on the Qu'ran- which came last, and is very heavily influenced by the religious books that came before it- and not the Bible or the Torah.

 

[Gutfright]

If people made arguments like weak where I'm from you'd get laughed out the room... You still haven't engaged with what I've said - hell, I'm not sure you even realise that the issue is your assumptions, and not the conclusions you come to because of those assumptions. The response to someone making that argument is not to keep making them and insisting your conclusions are correct.

How many Muslims do you know personally?

Ok, no assumptions, just some questions.

Do Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the word of God?

Do Muslims believe that God is perfect?

Do Muslims believe that the Prophet Mohammed made a mistake when writing down some (or all) verses of the Qur'an?

Oh, and btdubs, I've lived in Leicester for over a decade and know a shedload of Muslims.

 

[bnm]

Ok, no assumptions, just some questions.

Do Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the word of God?

Do Muslims believe that God is perfect?

Do Muslims believe that the Prophet Mohammed made a mistake when writing down some (or all) verses of the Qur'an?

Oh, and btdubs, I've lived in Leicester for over a decade and know a shedload of Muslims.

Go ask them your questions then. :roll:

 

[TheKnightWho]

Ok, no assumptions, just some questions.

Do Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the word of God?

Do Muslims believe that God is perfect?

Do Muslims believe that the Prophet Mohammed made a mistake when writing down some (or all) verses of the Qur'an?

Oh, and btdubs, I've lived in Leicester for over a decade and know a shedload of Muslims.

Do you realise that believing the word of god is perfect does not translate to literal interpretations? Or do you that if I say "you let the cat out of the bag" I think that you literally let a cat out of a bag?

I really don't see how this is a hard concept to understand if you're not trying to do you hardest to paint Muslims in an incredibly unfavourable light.

The very fact you think you can drop your assumptions is exactly why you're not engaging with them: all argument have to have premises; you just might not be aware of them.

 

[Gutfright]

Do you realise that believing the word of god is perfect does not translate to literal interpretations? Or do you that if I say "you let the cat out of the bag" I think that you literally let a cat out of a bag?

I really don't see how this is a hard concept to understand if you're not trying to do you hardest to paint Muslims in an incredibly unfavourable light.

The very fact you think you can drop your assumptions is exactly why you're not engaging with them: all argument have to have premises; you just might not be aware of them.

It sounds like you're saying that Muslims should not let the Qur'an guide their morality? Rather they should first decide if a given verse is moral, and if it is not they should perform whatever mental gymnastics are required to convince themselves that verse actually says the opposite of it's literal meaning?

Unfortunately, some people do take the Qur'an literally. That's one of the many reasons why it's important to try to encourage Muslims to abandon their faith (and to support and protect them once they do).

 

[TheKnightWho]

It sounds like you're saying that Muslims should not let the Qur'an guide their morality? Rather they should first decide if a given verse is moral, and if it is not they should perform whatever mental gymnastics are required to convince themselves that verse actually says the opposite of it's literal meaning?

Unfortunately, some people do take the Qur'an literally. That's one of the many reasons why it's important to try to encourage Muslims to abandon their faith (and to support and protect them once they do).

Yes, and that's as useful an argument as saying that some Christians do: i.e. not at all. If you want to justify Islamophobia you're going to have to make a better case than that.

 

[Gutfright]

Yes, and that's as useful an argument as saying that some Christians do: i.e. not at all. If you want to justify Islamophobia you're going to have to make a better case than that.

We should try to get rid of Christianity too.

Your previous post sounded like you were saying that Muslims should not let the Qur'an guide their morality. Rather they should first decide if a given verse is moral, and if it is not they should perform whatever mental gymnastics are required to convince themselves that verse actually says the opposite of it's literal meaning.

Is that what you were saying or have I misunderstood?

 

[TheKnightWho]

We should try to get rid of Christianity too.

Your previous post sounded like you were saying that Muslims should not let the Qur'an guide their morality. Rather they should first decide if a given verse is moral, and if it is not they should perform whatever mental gymnastics are required to convince themselves that verse actually says the opposite of it's literal meaning.

Is that what you were saying or have I misunderstood?

The point is not about #edgy atheism. The issue is the unwarranted focus on one particular religion.

And if you think that metaphors or nuanced interpretation are "mental gymnastics" I really do despair. Please stop with the misinterpretations, because it's doing you no favours.

 

[Gutfright]

The point is not about #edgy atheism. The issue is the unwarranted focus on one particular religion.

And if you think that metaphors or nuanced interpretation are "mental gymnastics" I really do despair. Please stop with the misinterpretations, because it's doing you no favours.

Perhaps I would understand better if you gave me a practical example? Let's return to Qur'an 4:34

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

Now clearly you believe that verse is a metaphor for women's equality which spreads an empowering feminist message. But what if some moron were to read that and think "that sounds a bit sexist to me"? How would you explain to that idiot that they are wrong?

And you haven't answered the question of whether morality should come from the Qur'an, or if the Qur'an should be "interpreted" in such a way as to confirm pre-existing morals?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Perhaps I would understand better if you gave me a practical example? Let's return to Qur'an 4:34

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

Now clearly you believe that verse is a metaphor for women's equality which spreads an empowering feminist message. But what if some moron were to read that and think "that sounds a bit sexist to me"? How would you explain to that idiot that they are wrong?

And you haven't answered the question of whether morality should come from the Qur'an, or if the Qur'an should be "interpreted" in such a way as to confirm pre-existing morals?

It's very obvious you have a strong agenda that isn't actually grounded in real experience with Muslims. Why do you focus on them so strongly, when the Bible is equally heavy in such messages? This isn't "two wrongs make a right", but getting at the very obvious double-standard you practice, if not preach.

Bigotry is often subtle, and whilst your sophistry may fly in online echo chambers, it doesn't fly with me.

No-one is saying that areas of Islam do not have problems with misogyny et al. However, that doesn't justify tarring all Muslims with the same brush. It's as simple as that. Trying to justify discrimination inevitably rests on these sweeping generalisations - ones which you keep making.

The fact that you keep ignoring the majority of my posts which point out the issues in your argumentation says a lot. You are simply refusing to engage with my argument properly, because you're still making your hilariously simplistic assumptions, such as that the majority of Muslims are fundamentalists with the nuance of a brick. Sadly, your patronising, contemptuous and ignorant attitude is all too common, and - as I keep saying - demonstrates no understanding of what Muslims are actually like.

 

[Gutfright]

It's very obvious you have a strong agenda that isn't actually grounded in real experience with Muslims. Why do you focus on them so strongly, when the Bible is equally heavy in such messages? This isn't "two wrongs make a right", but getting at the very obvious double-standard you practice, if not preach.

Bigotry is often subtle, and whilst your sophistry may fly in online echo chambers, it doesn't fly with me.

You still haven't explained how exactly Qur'an 4:34 is a metaphor for women's equality which spreads an empowering feminist message.

And you haven't answered the question of whether morality should come from the Qur'an, or if the Qur'an should be "interpreted" in such a way as to confirm pre-existing morals?

 

[TheKnightWho]

You still haven't explained how exactly Qur'an 4:34 is a metaphor for women's equality which spreads an empowering feminist message.

And you haven't answered the question of whether morality should come from the Qur'an, or if the Qur'an should be "interpreted" in such a way as to confirm pre-existing morals?

You still keep spectacularly failing to miss the point. It doesn't matter what the literal meaning of the verse is if the vast majority of Muslims do not incorporate it into their daily life.

Why do you have such a basic understanding of Islam, yet such strong opinions?

 

[Gutfright]

You still keep spectacularly failing to miss the point. It doesn't matter what the literal meaning of the verse is if the vast majority of Muslims do not incorporate it into their daily life.

Why do you have such a basic understanding of Islam, yet such strong opinions?

You would be surprised and disappointed at how shabbily women are treated in most Muslim countries. I can understand your desire to sweep the problem under the rug, though, it is hella depressing and there's not much we can do about it.

I'm still a bit confused by what you're saying. You seemed to be saying that the way of dealing with problematic verses is to "interpret" them as having the opposite meaning to their literal interpretation. Now you're seemingly saying the way of dealing with problematic verses is to ignore them, and just hope that everyone else does too?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Unfortunately, some people do take the Qur'an literally. That's one of the many reasons why it's important to try to encourage Muslims to abandon their faith (and to support and protect them once they do).

Should we encourage Christians to do the same thing? Christians are equally capable of causing violence and hatred. Perhaps you should research the Reverend Robert West. Do you agree with the Reverend Robert West?

 

[TheKnightWho]

You would be surprised and disappointed at how shabbily women are treated in most Muslim countries. I can understand your desire to sweep the problem under the rug, though, it is hella depressing and there's not much we can do about it.

I'm still a bit confused by what you're saying. You seemed to be saying that the way of dealing with problematic verses is to "interpret" them as having the opposite meaning to their literal interpretation. Now you're seemingly saying the way of dealing with problematic verses is to ignore them, and just hope that everyone else does too?

I'm not ignorant. I am perfectly aware of the issue facing women and minorities in many Muslim countries. Please don't patronise me. And I'm certainly not sweeping it under the rug, which - yet again - is not the point here.

The issue is your focus on Islam, and solely Islam, over these issues. You're not alone: I'm consistently amazed by how many people who are often strongly right-wing become ardent feminists and LGBTQ supporters where Islam is involved, applying standards they often don't enforce elsewhere.

 

[Gutfright]

Should we encourage Christians to do the same thing?

Yes. We should.

The issue is your focus on Islam, and solely Islam, over these issues.

I've condemned Christianity before and am happy to do so again.

But I am curious as to what role the Qur'an plays in Islam. I thought that the Qur'an was considered an integral part of the religion. Are you saying that it isn't?

 

[TheKnightWho]

But I am curious as to what role the Qur'an plays in Islam. I thought that the Qur'an was considered an integral part of the religion. Are you saying that it isn't?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

 

[Gutfright]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

So the Qur'an is simultaneously an integral part of the religion of Islam and not an integral part of the religion of Islam? It's Schrödinger's cat in book form?

How does that work, then?

 

[TheKnightWho]

So the Qur'an is simultaneously an integral part of the religion of Islam and not an integral part of the religion of Islam? It's Schrödinger's cat in book form?

How does that work, then?

I'm staggered how, instead of questioning your own simplistic assumptions, you batten down the hatches and assume I'm claiming two statements which are direct inverses.

 

[Gutfright]

I'm staggered how, instead of questioning your own simplistic assumptions, you batten down the hatches and assume I'm claiming two statements which are direct inverses.

Is the Qur'an an integral part of the religion of Islam?

 

[GatwickDepress]

Unfortunately, some people do take the Qur'an literally. That's one of the many reasons why it's important to try to encourage Muslims to abandon their faith (and to support and protect them once they do).

As a Muslimah myself, you're having a bloody laugh. We have the right to practice our religion, which states we must obey the law of the countries we live in - including non-Muslim countries. This includes domestic abuse and allowing women to vote. State-sponsored conversion to atheism will not go down well.

Domestic abuse and women's rights are a serious issue worldwide, not just in Islam. I will concede that the majority of Islamic teachings do not do enough to condemn abuse nor do community leaders provide enough safe space for victims of such abuse.

Why are you singling out Islam though? Domestic abuse is rife, and you don't have to be a Muslim to abuse women, as my cousin can very well tell you. You only have to look at "communities" like the Love-Shys and some of the more disturbing "edgy atheism" subreddits to see plenty of misogyny.

Like everything else, Islam changes with cultures. Just as gay marriage wasn't legal ten years ago, as new generations of Muslims are brought up; integrated into society in ways their parents never were, we'll start to see more acceptance and appreciation for things like feminism, LGBTQ rights, etc...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As a Muslimah myself, you're having a bloody laugh. We have the right to practice our religion, which states we must obey the law of the countries we live in - including non-Muslim countries. This includes domestic abuse and allowing women to vote. State-sponsored conversion to atheism will not go down well.

I always have the greatest respect for the way that you word your postings in a clear and concise matter, leaving no room for ambiguity.

ISIL do themselves no favours outside the strict conservative Wahaabist version of Sunni Islam by denying such freedoms to which you allude to women. Would you disagree with me over that specific matter?

 

[Gutfright]

Why are you singling out Islam though?

Many other religions have holy books which promote misogyny, homophobia, violence etc, and I condemn those religions too.

Like everything else, Islam changes with cultures.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Qur'an is the final, perfect word of God. Mohammed was the final prophet. Allah is not going to send anyone else down to Earth to say "Actually, the Qur'an was wrong. Homosexuality is fine and women are equal to men", is he?

I'll be honest, that's a problem. You're always going to get people who say "If the Qur'an is the word of God, and God is perfect, shouldn't we read all of the verses and not just cherry-pick the ones we like?". Unfortunately, that impedes any progress being made away from the 7th Century views expressed in your holy book.