Discussion regarding claims of random PIN requests on Contactless

[matt_world2004]

Note: The incorrect information in this post (and subsequent discussion) has been split from Penalty Advice (touch in not registered) . See correction in post #2 below.

Or simply the card was rejected because the card issuer issued a random pin Request.. The thing is the card could still be accepted at the gateline and throw the random pin request up when the inspection device touches it.

 

[MikeWh]

Or simply the card was rejected because the card issuer issued a random pin Request.. The thing is the card could still be accepted at the gateline and throw the random pin request up when the inspection device touches it.

No, no, no, no, no!

Touches on Oyster pads of any description will NEVER generate a PIN request.

 

[matt_world2004]

No, no, no, no, no!

Touches on Oyster pads of any description will NEVER generate a PIN request.

They do and for that you get an error code or two bleeps on android pay. You need to pirchase something else using a pin or use a cash machine

New cards will generate the same error

Error code 80

 

[najaB]

They do and for that you get an error code or two bleeps on android pay. You need to pirchase something else using a pin or use a cash machine

In that case there is something going very wrong with the system. An Oyster touch-in is not a financial transaction and so shouldn't generate a PIN request. All the Oyster reader is doing is interrogating the card to get its number - the financial stuff all happens in the back end.

 

[island]

It needs to generate a PIN request at some point, otherwise a stolen card could be used indefinitely.

 

[najaB]

It needs to generate a PIN request at some point, otherwise a stolen card could be used indefinitely.

Not on Oyster. It will get blacklisted when the bank declines the week's travel.

 

[MikeWh]

It needs to generate a PIN request at some point, otherwise a stolen card could be used indefinitely.

Not on Oyster. It will get blacklisted when the bank declines the week's travel.

It won't even get as far as the weeks travel. A stolen card will be blacklisted almost as soon as it is reported. If you are in the system you will be able to leave, but after that, you won't be able to use the card again.

I repeat again, taken from the mouth of the TfL director responsible for the contactless project, you will not be asked for a PIN when using contactless to travel in London.

 

[swt_passenger]

I repeat again, taken from the mouth of the TfL director responsible for the contactless project, you will not be asked for a PIN when using contactless to travel in London.

Remember we had a discussion of this last September, and I found a TfL paper that explained (amongst other things) that asking for PINs was not intended in the Transport Transaction Model (TTM):

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2712667&postcount=21

I also just found a pdf with a generic explanation of the TTM, which has a handy comparison of the differences between standard and transport on page 9

http://www.chyp.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/White-Paper-EMV-Payments-in-Transport.pdf

 

[island]

I repeat again, taken from the mouth of the TfL director responsible for the contactless project, you will not be asked for a PIN when using contactless to travel in London.

I've tested this for interest by obtaining a newly issued card from the bank to the station and attempting to touch in. The card was rejected.

After topping up an Oyster card for £10 at that station (using chip & PIN) and repeating, the card was accepted.

Whilst taken literally, the TfL director is correct in that you won't be asked for a PIN whilst using contactless to travel, the system can and does reject cards for entry under certain circumstances and can and does accept the same card immediately after a chip & PIN transaction has been performed on the card.

 

[najaB]

Whilst taken literally, the TfL director is correct in that you won't be asked for a PIN whilst using contactless to travel, the system can and does reject cards for entry under certain circumstances and can and does accept the same card immediately after a chip & PIN transaction has been performed on the card.

That is an edge case though as the card isn't activated until after the PIN is used at least once. It didn't have to be a purchase though, it could have been viewing your balance at an ATM.

 

[jimbo99]

Yes, I too found that new contactless cards don't work until the card has been used elsewhere with a PIN. After it's activated/initialised or whatever, then no problems.

 

[MikeWh]

Yes, I too found that new contactless cards don't work until the card has been used elsewhere with a PIN. After it's activated/initialised or whatever, then no problems.

Indeed. To all intents and purposes, a card is not contactless enabled until the PIN has been entered once to verify that it is in the correct hands. Of course, it is capable of communicating via contactless so the reader can determine that it isn't valid, but it's not actually asking you to enter a PIN there and then.

 

[matt_world2004]

Actually I had it about two years ago where the card was rejected at paddington and had been used to make contactless purchases earlier in the day. Went to the cash machine entered pin and it was accepted.

 

[MikeWh]

Actually I had it about two years ago where the card was rejected at paddington and had been used to make contactless purchases earlier in the day. Went to the cash machine entered pin and it was accepted.

With the utmost of respect, Matt, that doesn't mean that a PIN was requested. I've had cards apparently not work, particularly at some of the older tube gates, but on trying again at a different reader it was fine. I've found that if you put your finger under 1 edge so the card is at a slight angle to the reader it will work all of the time.

The transit model for contactless payments does NOT request a PIN, or fail to work if a PIN is due on the next contactless transaction.

 

[silvercar]

As a data point, I was travelling on TfL services with an elderly family member who has a contactless card that they only use for the rare occasions they are in London and travelling around. The card had worked on previous occasions and was in date.

On this day, tapping in failed to work 3 times, tapping out worked twice (or at least opened the gate). After much frustration we bought a one day travelcard.
We later found out the card had been blocked as it had only been used for contactless transactions since its first (and only) chip + PIN.

Will have to wait until the paper statement arrives to see if any charge has been processed against the card, conscious is clear as we bought a travelcard that would have been valid for all journeys made, even in retrospect for the journeys made before it was bought.

 

[A Challenge]

No tickets (not even rovers/travelcards) are valid retrospectively, excluding where you are allowed to buy on the train/at end.

 

[najaB]

No tickets (not even rovers/travelcards) are valid retrospectively, excluding where you are allowed to buy on the train/at end.

That is true, however buying the travelcard makes it harder for TfL to make the case that silvercar's relative was attempting to avoid paying for their travel.

 

[Surreytraveller]

On this day, tapping in failed to work 3 times, tapping out worked twice (or at least opened the gate). After much frustration we bought a one day travelcard.
We later found out the card had been blocked as it had only been used for contactless transactions since its first (and only) chip + PIN.

If an invalid card actually lets you out, having not let you in, can it still be charged? Shouldn't an invalid card fail to operate gates to enable the passenger to be dealt with?

 

[najaB]

Shouldn't an invalid card fail to operate gates to enable the passenger to be dealt with?

I don't work for TfL so this could be complete nonsense, but it seems like they are putting the emphasis on preventing travel fraud rather than detection.

Also, from a customer service point of view, which false positive gives the worst experience: being stopped at the barrier on the way in (when you have the option of walking away) or being detained in the system on the way out?

 

[island]

A contactless card should never fail to operate an exit ticket gate, irrespective of its status – I suppose if the chip has become defective this is possible.

 

[mattdickinson]

A contactless card should never fail to operate an exit ticket gate, irrespective of its status – I suppose if the chip has become defective this is possible.

If a card has been placed on the deny list, the gates will open and 49 will flash up on the gate display.