Discussion: Travelling on an earlier service due to a cancellation - is any refund due?

[Esker-pades]

Possibly hypothetical scenario:
You are travelling from point A to Z via M. Your train from A to M is cancelled. Because you have to get to point Z by a certain time, you decide to travel on an earlier train from A to M so you can get your desired train from M to Z. Clearly, this has caused inconvenience for you as you have had to leave wherever (for arguments' sake) 1 hour earlier due to no fault of your own. If you had turned up for your booked train, you would have been very late, so would have been entitled to compensation under delay repay.

Morally, I would argue that compensation is due. The customer should not have to be pro-active in such a situation. Furthermore, the customer has lost an additional 1 hour of their day to travel.

However, I'm not sure if the current compensation/refund framework allows this. It doesn't fall under NRCoT 30.1 because the ticket was used for travel. It doesn't fall under delay repay because you technically weren't delayed (you arrived at your destination on time).

Discuss.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I would agree that, under the current system and arrangements, there is no entitlement to delay compensation if you start your journey early to minimise potential delays/missed last trains of the day.

I would also agree that there is morally an entitlement to compensation where you start your journey earlier in order to avoid such delays.

If you want to see this changed I think it will take political action to get it done, and at the moment I don't think this is the kind of issue on the railways which requires the most attention unfortunately!

 

[ComUtoR]

If I leave home early "to avoid delays" and get to the station an hour early but sit in the cafe for a spot of lunch and a swift half and then get my booked train. Am I still entitled to compensation ?

 

[yorkie]

I already absweans this yesterday: it's undefined band needs to be clarified.

 

[cuccir]

While I can see the point being made, there is a reasonable question as to whether a continued expansion of Delay Repay would create a scheme more open to abuse and more demanding on TOCs. The latter it could be argued might be an incentive to minimize delays, but the former seems to be something to be wary of. There's a risk that Delay Repay could be endlessly expanded to try and capture all forms of rail-inconvenience to the point where it becomes unwieldy and too easy to abuse. The current scheme has the merit of being simple, insofar as: it judges payment based one single factor, that is the minutes that you were late at your destination; it has a level of validation, that is in requiring you to claim only for actions that you have actually taken. By contrast, incorporating passengers in the scenario from the original post starts to get us into the world of hypothetical behaviour. What of a passenger who wasn't sure if they would take the earlier train or the later cancelled train? How certain do you have to have been in your plan to take the cancelled train to qualify?

Which isn't to disagree with the point that a passenger travelling as described in the original post has had their time lost and journey disrupted in a similar way to someone who arrives an hour late, and in a similar way to that which the Delay Repay scheme is intended to compensate.

 

[thejuggler]

I had this situation on Friday, except it was a direct service. 10.45 cancelled, but as we were informed early enough we caught the 10.15 instead.

As we arrived early it is difficult to argue we were delayed QED no delay repay.

 

[Typhoon]

I had this situation on Friday, except it was a direct service. 10.45 cancelled, but as we were informed early enough we caught the 10.15 instead.

As we arrived early it is difficult to argue we were delayed QED no delay repay.

Accepting what has been stated above I wonder if you would have a moral case if the earlier service was a 'slow' journey or one that required a change which increased the journey time by, say, 30 minutes.
(I'm not suggesting that you would be successful - it is difficult enough trying to get delay repay according to the existing rules.)

 

[island]

No entitlement, though some TOCs would probably pay out as a gesture of goodwill.

 

[cuccir]

I think that as imagined in the original post, the traveller takes an earlier train in order to connect to the same service that their cancelled train would have connected to. So the arrival time is the same, but the journey has taken longer. The case being made (essentially) is that the railway will compensate for a journey that's longer than planned if that time is added onto the end of a journey, but not if that time is added onto the start.

 

[JBuchananGB]

This is not so theoretical. My daughter has booked travel from Southport to Euston on 10/11 prior to the announcement of strikes on Northern. She is booked on 8.24 departure from SOP and the 9.10 from Wigan North Western. On the the 3 preceding Saturdays, for which revised timetables have been published, the 8.24 is not scheduled but instead there will be an earlier departure to Wigan Wallgate.
Our attitude is to closely monitor the situation, and for her to be sure to catch whatever train runs from SOP to ensure she makes the booked train at Wigan.

The idea of compensation never crossed her mind! And she is very compensation conscious!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

This is not so theoretical. My daughter has booked travel from Southport to Euston on 10/11 prior to the announcement of strikes on Northern. She is booked on 8.24 departure from SOP and the 9.10 from Wigan North Western. On the the 3 preceding Saturdays, for which revised timetables have been published, the 8.24 is not scheduled but instead there will be an earlier departure to Wigan Wallgate.
Our attitude is to closely monitor the situation, and for her to be sure to catch whatever train runs from SOP to ensure she makes the booked train at Wigan.

The idea of compensation never crossed her mind! And she is very compensation conscious!

I would never turn up earlier because of the train company's changes to the timetable - unless I desperately had to arrive on time. You get to travel and get to be compensated - why would you not do it?! Either way you are going to be inconvenienced, whether it's through departing earlier or arriving later.

 

[Darandio]

I would never turn up earlier because of the train company's changes to the timetable - unless I desperately had to arrive on time. You get to travel and get to be compensated - why would you not do it?! Either way you are going to be inconvenienced, whether it's through departing earlier or arriving later.

So taking the example that started this thread in the first place. You need to travel from Battersby, there is no alternative bus service and the 17:45 is cancelled but you can travel 40 minutes earlier. There is no later train at all. Are you going to not turn up earlier just to try and make some kind of point?

Bear in mind that if you demand alternative transport, your nearest taxi is probably in Middlesbrough and will then have to navigate the rural roads to get to you, and that is if the taxi company is remotely interested. You are then going to arrive much, much later at your destination.

Rather than making a stand, there are times when people just have to make better choices to make life easier. So why would you do it? I suspect I know your answer though.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

So taking the example that started this thread in the first place. You need to travel from Battersby, there is no alternative bus service and the 17:45 is cancelled but you can travel 40 minutes earlier. There is no later train at all. Are you going to not turn up earlier just to try and make some kind of point?

Bear in mind that if you demand alternative transport, your nearest taxi is probably in Middlesbrough and will then have to navigate the rural roads to get to you, and that is if the taxi company is remotely interested. You are then going to arrive much, much later at your destination.

So why would you do it? Rathern than making a stand, there are times when people just have to make better choices to make life easier.

Well, as I said. If there were a good reason why I wanted to catch the originally booked train - e.g. because I knew that massive delays might otherwise result - I would consider arriving earlier.

But yes, as a point of principle, until such point as TOCs enlarge delay compensation to recognise the significant inconvenience often caused by cancellations meaning you have to leave earlier, I will make as much use of my contractual rights as possible. If that means ending up a TOC with a huge taxi (and possibly compensation) bill, even better!

 

[big all]

i would say its good practice to have a back up plan if an arrival time is crucial then the train before is your good planning

 

[Esker-pades]

i would say its good practice to have a back up plan if an arrival time is crucial then the train before is your good planning

Lovely suggestion. Doesn't work for stations with a limited service though.

 

[Bantamzen]

Well, as I said. If there were a good reason why I wanted to catch the originally booked train - e.g. because I knew that massive delays might otherwise result - I would consider arriving earlier.

But yes, as a point of principle, until such point as TOCs enlarge delay compensation to recognise the significant inconvenience often caused by cancellations meaning you have to leave earlier, I will make as much use of my contractual rights as possible. If that means ending up a TOC with a huge taxi (and possibly compensation) bill, even better!

I do get where you are coming from, but given the option of sitting around waiting for a taxi to make a point, or just rescheduling my day to travel earlier I personally would always opt for the latter. And its always worth keeping in mind that as the scheme expands, so the impact on TOC bottom line grows, and that will eventually find its way back to the customer. That's not to say people shouldn't claim when they are late to their destination where no other option existed, but in examples like this you have to consider it is really worth it, and for me it just wouldn't be. I'd rather have a back up plan, which I always do try to have than sit around getting more & more fed up whilst not actually moving. Its not always possible of course, my last fairly big delay was an hour late flying back from Corfu. So my wife & I simply found a corner of the airport & enjoyed one extra, last glass of wine!

 

[kristiang85]

I personally would say leaving your job/child at home an hour early to avoid a certain delay is exactly the same as getting to your job/child at home an hour late due to a delay.

And in some cases, if it means you avoiding missing the last train of the day and the TOC being liable for much more than a bit of delay repay (i.e. a taxi home), they should be thanking you for being proactive and saving them money.

 

[najaB]

I personally would say leaving your job/child at home an hour early to avoid a certain delay is exactly the same as getting to your job/child at home an hour late due to a delay.

I agree, but not sure how a system would work that isn't open to abuse.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I agree, but not sure how a system would work that isn't open to abuse.

I think if it worked just like DR does currently, though in reverse, then it would have exactly the same level of potential for abuse.

 

[kristiang85]

I agree, but not sure how a system would work that isn't open to abuse.

Basically if they have evidence the journey was made and the subsequent train had the delay as expected, I don't see it as any more open to abuse than the current DR system.

In winter for example TOCs tell you to get an earlier train to avoid disruption from a storm later in the day. Arguably many passengers might just ignore that and take their chances later to claim a big whack of delay compensation; encouraging people to get earlier trains by compensating them for this too can only help the situation.

 

[najaB]

I think if it worked just like DR does currently, though in reverse, then it would have exactly the same level of potential for abuse.

It's 12:20 and I'm travelling from a station with hourly service. I had planned to get lunch in a cafe close to the station, then catch the train at 14:30 to make my connection at 16:00. I see that the train at 14:30 is cancelled. So I hop on the 12:30 train so that I'll be still have time to get lunch a the connecting station (the 13:30 would make the connection but not leave me time for lunch because I take a long time to eat).

Perfectly reasonable but, assuming that there's no barriers or other way to verify which train I caught, how is that distinguishable from someone who could have caught (or even did catch!) the 13:30 but claimed for the 12:30 to maximise their compensation?

 

[Esker-pades]

It's 12:20 and I'm travelling from a station with hourly service. I had planned to get lunch in a cafe close to the station, then catch the train at 14:30 to make my connection at 16:00. I see that the train at 14:30 is cancelled. So I hop on the 12:30 train so that I'll be still have time to get lunch a the connecting station (the 13:30 would make the connection but not leave me time for lunch because I take a long time to eat).

Perfectly reasonable but, assuming that there's no barriers or other way to verify which train I caught, how is that distinguishable from someone who could have caught (or even did catch!) the 13:30 but claimed for the 12:30 to maximise their compensation?

The TOC would check what the latest train was one could catch in order to make the connection. Just as they do if someone claims a missed connection due to a delay now.

 

[najaB]

The TOC would check what the latest train was one could catch in order to make the connection. Just as they do if someone claims a missed connection due to a delay now.

So we have a system where compensation is based on what *could* have happened... Can't see any complaints arising there.

 

[sheff1]

So we have a system where compensation is based on what *could* have happened... Can't see any complaints arising there.

No different to claiming for delays (particularly due to cancellations) with some TOCs who 'guess' what you could have done, even if you quite clearly state what you did do.

 

[najaB]

No different to claiming for delays (particularly due to cancellations) with some TOCs who 'guess' what you could have done, even if you quite clearly state what you did do.

Which results in complaints.

 

[BrooklyBay]

Related question, as this has me intrigued. Is it generally accepted that if your booked train is cancelled, but you are in the station earlier, that you can catch an alternate service before the cancelled service would have run?

As an example - was travelling London > Sheffield on the recent derailment day and was at the station a good 1.5 hours early due to a flight arriving early. Immediately noticed my train was cancelled but was advised by the information point staff that I would only be allowed to catch an alternate service that was departing after my cancelled one, so my 1.5 hour wait became a much longer wait.

 

[221129]

Related question, as this has me intrigued. Is it generally accepted that if your booked train is cancelled, but you are in the station earlier, that you can catch an alternate service before the cancelled service would have run?

As an example - was travelling London > Sheffield on the recent derailment day and was at the station a good 1.5 hours early due to a flight arriving early. Immediately noticed my train was cancelled but was advised by the information point staff that I would only be allowed to catch an alternate service that was departing after my cancelled one, so my 1.5 hour wait became a much longer wait.

That's correct. However if you ask the guard of the train most would apply common sense.

 

[BrooklyBay]

That's correct. However if you ask the guard of the train most would apply common sense.

Sorry - you mean "can only catch one that departs *afterwards* is correct right?

If so, will work on my pleading face for the future!

 

[221129]

Sorry - you mean "can only catch one that departs *afterwards* is correct right?

If so, will work on my pleading face for the future!

Correct. However most guards would use common sense and use discretion

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Related question, as this has me intrigued. Is it generally accepted that if your booked train is cancelled, but you are in the station earlier, that you can catch an alternate service before the cancelled service would have run?

As an example - was travelling London > Sheffield on the recent derailment day and was at the station a good 1.5 hours early due to a flight arriving early. Immediately noticed my train was cancelled but was advised by the information point staff that I would only be allowed to catch an alternate service that was departing after my cancelled one, so my 1.5 hour wait became a much longer wait.

Correct. However most guards would use common sense and use discretion

One TOC has previously told me that I could get a train one hour either side of my originally booked one if this happened. Obviously that may just be that TOC's policy.