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Disinfecting trains?

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Pete_uk

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Something I have often wondered about but more so now what with 'The Virus' going around.

How much of a train (especially the bits humans touch) has disinfectant and or bleach put over it? I'm talking about tables, buttons hand grabs and buttons? (especially the London Underground/Overground)

I hear some trains operated by some TOCs are not cleaned very much at all in terms of littler, so I'm guessing it would be to much to ask for some splashing of disinfectant.
 
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Carlisle

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I'm going to quickly venture the opinion of "none of it at all", other than possibly a quick spray of antibac on the tables possibly maybe.
Yes, I believe for a multitude of health & safety reasons, bleach hasn’t been widely used within train or station environments for quite a while now
 
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Tom B

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Under the principles of removing potentially unsafe processes before putting control measures in place, I think various places have stopped using bleach - although whether the chemicals used instead are as effective I know not. Bleach kills everything and is very cheap.

The time taken to properly disinfect a whole train must be significant, given the number of surfaces to be done. The cleaning that I've seen at King's Cross seems to be 'spot cleaning' i.e. litter pick, hoover, and wipe/mop if things are dirty only - but doing the toilets fully. I don't know if a more comprehensive clean occurs in depots?
 

farci

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'...On the London Underground, where there is an extremely high density of people crowded into each carriage, previous research has suggested a link between commuting and the likelihood of catching respiratory illnesses. Dr Lara Gosce, at the Institute of Global Health, says her research (published in 2018) showed people who used the Underground regularly were more likely to suffer flu-like symptoms..'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51736185
There was a news report on BBC Scotland recently showing Scotrail's regular cleaning routine when trains are in service - maybe somebody can locate it
 

Bletchleyite

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'...On the London Underground, where there is an extremely high density of people crowded into each carriage, previous research has suggested a link between commuting and the likelihood of catching respiratory illnesses. Dr Lara Gosce, at the Institute of Global Health, says her research (published in 2018) showed people who used the Underground regularly were more likely to suffer flu-like symptoms..'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51736185

That's more from direct person to person transmission, though. Cold and flu viruses don't survive long outside the body. For COVID19 views on this seem to vary.
 

WesternLancer

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Guardian news website update says this (I assume it's a cut and paste of a TfL statement):

Transport for London, which controls much of the public transport in the UK capital, has announced an enhanced cleaning regime across the bus and tube networks.
Cleaning across both networks will now use “additional substances that kill viruses and bacteria on contact”. According to the announcement:
TfL began rolling out enhanced anti-viral fluid, which is used in hospitals, at tube trains and stations on Friday last week to provide added protection. Key interchanges will be cleaned more regularly than usual, including during the day.


Doesn't mention Overground or TfL Rail though!:s

But given the avg standard of cleanliness of UK trains (which I regard as fairly woeful) I would not live in hope - and unless you are doing this permanently and persistently (not just at depot cleans) it will not have much affect as a person with a virus could leave germs on a surface soon after it's cleaned.

Having been on cruises in the past where the industry is fairly obsessed with cutting risk of things like norovirus there are staff going round permanently sanitizing things in public areas - door handles, rails, toilets etc etc - that level of cleaning in the general public realms would simply, in my view, never be affordable in general in UK in my view.
 

Bletchleyite

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Having been on cruises in the past where the industry is fairly obsessed with cutting risk of things like norovirus there are staff going round permanently sanitizing things in public areas - door handles, rails, toilets etc etc - that level of cleaning in the general public realms would simply, in my view, never be affordable in general in UK in my view.

It's also not needed, at least in normal circumstances - cruises, because of the same people living and eating together for several days to weeks, are in some ways just a floating petri-dish of agar jelly (one of the many reasons they just don't appeal given the rate I get colds at). But talking of the railway, I do find muck accumulating on e.g. windowsills between seat backs and on aircon outlet vents to show a really poor level of attention to detail which means that TOC does need to buck its ideas up.
 

hexagon789

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ScotRail staff having been spraying disinfectant and rubbing down grab handles, tables, door buttons etc recently, other than tables something I've not seen staff do before
 

physics34

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Its very unlikely the virus will survive for very long in the air, so disinfecting a train may be pointless. I do wonder about air conditioning though. Google Legionaires disease
 

WesternLancer

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Its very unlikely the virus will survive for very long in the air, so disinfecting a train may be pointless. I do wonder about air conditioning though. Google Legionaires disease
I'd expect air con systems to have legionnaires mitigation covered in risk assessments and action plans as it's a known risk really though. That's not to say it's a solved problem of course.
 

Elecman

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Its very unlikely the virus will survive for very long in the air, so disinfecting a train may be pointless. I do wonder about air conditioning though. Google Legionaires disease

Train aircon systems dont spray aerosol water so Legionella isn’t an issue
 

AndrewE

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Train aircon systems dont spray aerosol water so Legionella isn’t an issue
No aircon systems should spray water, and the few that do [have wet cooling towers] are supposed to be registered, managed and inspected regularly. Having said that, every time there is an outbreak of Legionnaires' disease an inspection blitz seems to uncover a few dozen unknown ones in addition to whichever one caused it...
Someone might be thinking of humidifier fever (which is still Legionalla)
Bleach does kill lots (maybe all) germs... it also rots lots of materials - or discolours them at least.
Nothing wrong with intensifying train cleaning and using a special (non-corrosive) antiviral cleaner on handrails and tables at a higher frequency of course...
 

Mikey C

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There's hardly much time to clean London tubes during the day, how long do trains wait at the terminus before returning again?

With buses it's even worse, as many routes terminate in the middle of nowhere, well away from a bus station or garage

Yes you can give a more thorough clean overnight, but that still leaves 18 hours of germ accumulation before the next clean...
 

Elshad

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No need to use bleach, normal household disinfectant like Dettol should be fine, as long as its done properly i.e. not using the same slightly damp rag to wipe an entire train, which will probably end up transferring bacterial/viral material from one surface to another.

I suppose disposable wipes would be the best (like the ones found in the green boxes in hospitals) as they can be thrown away and replaced regularly.
 

AndrewE

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This is where it would be good to have one railway, big enough to have in-house expertise across a range of fields (you could even call the department "Scientific Services") and then use their recommendations to develop a sensible policy which took account of both the scientific and medical facts and the railway's needs and practical constraints.
What a pity it was thrown away... You reap what you sow.
Interesting that after a decade of experts being derided and abused for standing in the way of "financial progress"or whatever the current (last) buzzword was, the media can now not find enough experts to help them understand what is going on and hold the politicians' hands until they can claim to have delivered us!
(Bitter, me? Just see how quickly you can find an "expert" who also understands the railway's operational needs, then ask yourself why!)
 
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SlimJim1694

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I was always told that when they clean the toilet they also wipe down the passenger armrests, tables and drivers console with the same cloth.
 

Pete_uk

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I was always told that when they clean the toilet they also wipe down the passenger armrests, tables and drivers console with the same cloth.

Ooooh they don't!?

Thanks for the replies. I thought that most trains and of course busses would be covered in germs. That's life really isn't it? We have no idea what germs we catch but fight off without knowing it. At least we don't have to open train doors with handles covered in you-know-what.
 

reddragon

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Something I have often wondered about but more so now what with 'The Virus' going around.

How much of a train (especially the bits humans touch) has disinfectant and or bleach put over it? I'm talking about tables, buttons hand grabs and buttons? (especially the London Underground/Overground)

I hear some trains operated by some TOCs are not cleaned very much at all in terms of littler, so I'm guessing it would be to much to ask for some splashing of disinfectant.

I understand that most virus transmission is by airborne particles from coughing, sneezing, breathing being breathed in or getting into your eyes. These land on any surface, so a wider area than you might expect. Few transit by hand unless of course there is a particularly unhygienic individual who wipes his nose with his hand, say like kids who hold the lower end of the handrails!
 

AndrewE

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Thanks for the replies. I thought that most trains and of course busses would be covered in germs. That's life really isn't it? We have no idea what germs we catch but fight off without knowing it. At least we don't have to open train doors with handles covered in you-know-what.
Almost every surface everywhere in the world is covered in "germs," our skin and our insides (gut interior) included. A big risk comes from eliminating them by sterilising skin or taking antibiotics because bugs that we have not developed an immunity to can get in first and cause infections or other problems.
Hence the miracles apparently worked on various bowel disease sufferers by "faecal transplants!"
 
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Bletchleyite

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Yes, this. Microbes are not necessarily a massive threat, and germphobes, unless immunosuppressed, are doing themselves no favours.

Coronavirus is an exception, but once it's died down, as it will in the end, there is no sense in continuing to make your skin raw by washing hands 30 times a day. Just be sensible. These are special, temporary circumstances requiring a special, temporary response.
 
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